What about the Irish teachers and doctors and nurses working there? They are enriching themselves on slavery and murder. What sanctions would you like to see imposed on them? Do you want such reprehensible people teaching our children and treating our sick and vulnerable?
Solidarity with Palestine
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No, but as we don't live in a political or moral vacuum do you think there should be some consistency in how and where we apply out moral indignation?
Sister Sara
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Consistency! Are you serious?? When has there ever been 'consistency' with how the world has dealt with conflicts around the globe? Why are you holding Irish people to a standard that has never existed?
Each and every conflict has its rights and wrongs. As mentioned before we could go back to biblical times to trash this one out in Palestine but I don't think thats reasonable here. Now, it appears you want a consistent approach to all the worlds conflicts or none at all?
Good questions and here is the thread that you started that relates to the issue you have raised.
https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/sudanese-war.237257/page-3#post-2004424
Yes. Do you not think that we should be somewhat consistent? We are, obviously, talking about current conflicts. Why should we get so would up about Gaza and no be bothered about a far more serious and devastating humanitarian crisis?
So what's you answer?
Duke of Marmalade
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I think that proves @Purple's point. There is nothing wrong with focusing on one of the many burning issues in the world. It's rather like choosing your own charity, doesn't mean you don't see merit or even more merit in other charities.
But the concerned class are not so eclectic, they have an obsessional focus on Israel.
It has to be part anti semitic. But I think it is even more anti American which is why it is dominated by the left wing.
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Sister Sara
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It's not anti-semitic and really, that slur has been bandied about so much its an insult to those who are victims of anti-semitism.
There is no doubt there is some element of anti-American government but that was there long before this latest war and the subsequent outpouring of solidarity, not just in Ireland, but across the world.
Where I live it usually represented no more than a dozen or so people attending a rally. Now those same rallies are ten, twenty-fold. In fact, from what I'm gauging amongst American people it is anti-American to be standing with Netanyahu and his terrorist friends.
But this topic only came alive again after the Ed Sheeran/Robert Kraft debacle and the attempt to silence free speech by way of threatening to cancel concerts over Mackelmores chant (which included "Free Sudan" in case anyone is wondering). It just so happened that in the days that followed the Irish Defence Minister and An Taoiseach have made some unprecedented comments about the EU and about what is occurring in Gaza. But rather than focus on what high office is communicating to the people and their peers in political office, rather than take note of what the British government is now saying, the deflection to "whatabout Sudan" arises. Even though there is an explicit thread already for that https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/sudanese-war.237257/page-3#post-2004424 .
This is crux of why some people try to deflect. What is happening in Palestine has gone beyond left/right politics. International agreements are in place for the two-state solution but the mask of the apartheid, genocidal Israeli government has slipped. Its government is not only openly talking about measures to effectively wipe the Palestinian state and its people off the face of the earth. It is enacting measures to do so, Ask Helen McEntee.
Duke of Marmalade
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That doesn’t explain the obsession with Israel despite even worse injustices elsewhere.
That is partly racist. Israelis are white. Sudan is only savages doing what savages do, it’s their culture.
Now take Rwanda. 70% if its population is female. That was genocide. I do not recall any demos against that.
That is partly racist. Israelis are white. Sudan is only savages doing what savages do, it’s their culture.
Now take Rwanda. 70% if its population is female. That was genocide. I do not recall any demos against that.
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Sister Sara
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What obsession with Israel? As pointed out to you prior to this recent war maybe a dozen or two would come out to rally for Palestine where I live. Now it is 10, 20 fold!
Why?
Perhaps most people who are ordinarily oblivious to what has been happening for decades, on a lessor scale, always took the word of European, US and Israeli govts of the shining beacon 'democracy' of the Middle East now saw what the couple of dozen rally go-ers have been seeing for decades?
Your old enough to remember the BBC reports from a starving Ethiopia and how Sir Bob galvinised the people in action?
You remember the Dunnes strikers who were ignored by most for a long time before what was occurring in South Africa appeared on our TV screens?
I've heard stories of how the US lost the war in Vietnam following TV footage of small naked children terrified and running from the bombing.
I remember the outpouring of solidarity with the Ukrainian people following Russia's illegal invasion - the solidarity has somewhat waned from public view but it still exists. Partly because the EU, US have actually taken some steps to combat Russia?
Sometimes people, of left and right, become so revulsed at atrocities that they stand together to see what can be done to stop it. And that is what is happening now, at least in my opinion.
This is silly Duke, you know it. By all means take to streets and rally for Sudan but you won't, so you stop trying to label people as racists because Israeli's are 'white'!
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Duke of Marmalade
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You are misrepresenting me, and you know it. They set a much higher bar for Israelis than they do for Sudan.
Sister Sara
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Do you know what is happening in Sudan? I don't, not really, just posted on the appropriate thread about it.
Maybe its a case of waves of populations across the world becoming aware of what is happening in Palestine because of what they see on TV and their phones?
Personally, I think that is the most logical answer for the sudden upsurge of solidarity with Palestine in last 2 yrs despite it being a conflict that is 80yrs old.
In fact I think Ed Sheeran is being held to a higher standard that Netanyahu. God knows what will become of his music career, I hope sincerely he will be ok. Netanyahu in the meantime, with a international warrant for arrest can travel to EU (Hungary) and US unimpeded.
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Sister Sara
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@JoeRoberts for the want of not disrupting the 'What a Game' thread I will respond to your remark about watching European Athletics here.
Maybe I haven't been clear but I actually oppose the sanctioning of athletes, teams etc in sporting competitions. I have no issue with Israel participating in any competition save for the fact that inconsistent application of the rules by those in charge has led to a split in Irish sporting and society in general - that is what irks me most.
The Irish soccer team, if the reporting is accurate, is split on the issue with players like Gavin Bazunu having to make decisions of conscience that he shouldn't have to take.
The Eurovision is tarnished in my view, not that I watch it anyway, but for some Eurovision hopefuls it will be a difficult decision to take - a decision they shouldn't have to take.
I'm not a big follower of Irish athletics but I would hate to think that some of our athletes feel they are in a position where they too may decide to withdraw from competition. Irish athletics, unlike football, is not overly meaningful to me.
The reality from my perspective is that if political leaders and governing bodies do not take concrete and consistent action in accordance with their own rules and values against the Israeli govt and its army generals then this matter is going to get worse and cause much further disruption in the time ahead.
You already have the Irish Minister for Defence, a FG politician, stating that the "EU has no credibility" on this matter.
Anybody that is not alerted by that statement alone is just burying their heads in the sand, in my opinion.
Maybe I haven't been clear but I actually oppose the sanctioning of athletes, teams etc in sporting competitions. I have no issue with Israel participating in any competition save for the fact that inconsistent application of the rules by those in charge has led to a split in Irish sporting and society in general - that is what irks me most.
The Irish soccer team, if the reporting is accurate, is split on the issue with players like Gavin Bazunu having to make decisions of conscience that he shouldn't have to take.
The Eurovision is tarnished in my view, not that I watch it anyway, but for some Eurovision hopefuls it will be a difficult decision to take - a decision they shouldn't have to take.
I'm not a big follower of Irish athletics but I would hate to think that some of our athletes feel they are in a position where they too may decide to withdraw from competition. Irish athletics, unlike football, is not overly meaningful to me.
The reality from my perspective is that if political leaders and governing bodies do not take concrete and consistent action in accordance with their own rules and values against the Israeli govt and its army generals then this matter is going to get worse and cause much further disruption in the time ahead.
You already have the Irish Minister for Defence, a FG politician, stating that the "EU has no credibility" on this matter.
Anybody that is not alerted by that statement alone is just burying their heads in the sand, in my opinion.
Duke of Marmalade
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A totally populist statement.
JoeRoberts
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May well the next big issue if a campaign gets behind it like they did with football. Once you open these cans you can't close them. This is the problem with mixing sport and politics.
Sister Sara
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That is the point.
Sister Sara
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The way to stop that is for the politicians, the law-makers, to enact and enforce the rules. If they don't then others will attempt to do so by whatever means they can, through sport, music, media etc.
JoeRoberts
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What rule are we talking about in regard to the football match. Is there a similar rule for the athletics ?
Sister Sara
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The rule that saw Russia banned from participating in UEFA competitions for its illegal invasion and illegal occupation of Ukrainian lands.
I think Russia is banned also from these competitions for the same reason?
This isn't hard to understand. I don't know why you are pretending that you don't understand what is happening. It's weird.
JoeRoberts
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Is that a rule or decision ?
Very different issues in any case.
Sister Sara
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Rule or decision? what odds?
Very different conflicts for sure, but the charges of genocide, illegal occupation, war crimes, crimes against humanity stand.
I don't know what it is you are trying to argue or establish here? It's weird the constant pivoting to issues other than the charges of genocide, war crimes etc,
- The Israeli government are wanted internationally for serious crimes. It wasn't "the left", or RTE, that issued the arrest warrants.
Until those in power act on those charges then international law is being undermined. With it, the erosion of cultural and social cohesion.
Unfortunately international law only exists as long as those with power agree to abide by it. If democratic countries want everyone to abide by those laws then they have to ensure that they are powerful enough to make that happen.
We had;
Pax Roama.
Pax Britannica.
Pax Americana.
What do you think Pax China or Pax India will look like?