Solidarity with Palestine

Sister Sara said:
The title is reference to the people who identify as Palestinian
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Yes, in the modern ill defined meaning of what being Palestinian is. Former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir said that she was a Palestinian but she didn't mean it as it is meant now by the Muslim population of Gaza. I'm quite sure that Hamas don't regard the Christian population of Gaza that they displaced as being Palestinian.
 
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The thing about people trying to get national teams not to play etc regardless of what the issues are is that then it's surmising that the whole population that they represent agrees with the decision, whereas you will only get that with a referendum, so is it just the view of that teams governing body, the government, or a poll taken by an organisation asking 1500 people? Or whoever shouts the loudest
 
Ceist Beag said:
So what? Lots of artists shout stupid things all the time. If we go down the road of censoring them or shutting them out, that's a very wrong road to go down.
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Your quote was about artists speaking about humanity concerns. Which is very different to the " free palestine" war cry in this case.
 
JoeRoberts said:
Your quote was about artists speaking about humanity concerns. Which is very different to the " free palestine" war cry in this case.
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To many people it's the same thing. To many others it's a "war cry". That's the problem with subjective terms in the context of a complex and deeply divisive issue.

There's no accepted objective definition of what a Palestinian is.
There's certainly no objective definition of what a "free" Palestine is.
There's no accepted objective definition of what a Zionist is.

It's hard to have a conversation when the narrative is filled with what can be meant or interpreted as pejorative terms.
 
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JoeRoberts said:
meaningless idiotic phrase
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You must be appalled then at the attention a billionaire and some of his pals afforded to what Macklemore said? That is after all what propelled Macklemore comments to the media headlines.

These people may have even derailed the career of their "friend", Sheeran. I sympathise with the position Sheeran has found himself in but blame firmly lies at the feet at the billionaires that over-reacted to what as you describe “meaningless idiotic phrase”.

I don’t sympathise with Sheeran in the stance he took. He should have told the billionaires where to go and let them feel the ire of the public for cancelling the cultural and social arrangements of maybe 600,000 (?) people who have bought tickets to the events.

I think the wood is being missed from the trees here. We have had the Sheeran debacle, the Eurovision is tarnished, the Irish soccer team are in an unenviable position, in UK you can charged with terrorist offences for waving a flag.

The real issue is the failure of the political class and governing bodies to enact their rules. Sheeran, broadcasters, sportspeople should not be in the positions they finding themselves in. Eurovision, UEFA and EU have failed.

As @Purple attests too, Ireland once tolerated a leadership that plausibly engaged in war crimes and crimes against humanity, it was a dark place for Irish society. We now have international institutions that can hold individuals or nation states that descend into darkness of tyranny and terrorism. By tolerating Netanyahu and his terrorist cabinet Israeli society is demonstrating that it has fallen into that dark space.

To re-iterate McEntee, “we are seeing an attempt to erase a population.” This a govt minister representing the views of the Irish government, speaking on behalf of the Irish people, at the international assembly of the UN.
 
Sister Sara said:
The real issue is the failure of the political class and governing bodies to enact their rules.
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Those rules are based in international law and that is the remit of the UN. Those rules also apply to Russia, China, the USA, The UAE, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, Chad, Rwanda, Sudan, The DRC, and many many other countries. Since the rules were put in place in the late 1940's you could have added the UK, France, Holland, Belgium and just about every other country that ever had a colonial or military interest in any other country... and when Ireland was part of the UK Irish people were up to their necks in the oppression and murder of people in other countries. The ideals of the UN, and the legitimacy of the laws that it seeks to uphold, went down with Dag Hammarskjöld when his plane was shot down by a Belgian former RAF piolet over Zambia in 1961.
 
JoeRoberts said:
Indeed, and largely driven by the forgotten events of Oct 7th.
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Absolutely. And Hamas is driven by their grievances caused by previous Israeli atrocities and so on.

The problem is that hierarchies of suffering are built on blood, make everyone a prisoner of history and always lead to more suffering. If we learned anything from Northern Ireland we learned that.
 
JoeRoberts said:
True but primarily driven by a desire to eliminate the state of Isreal. The concept that the flag wavers conveniently ignore.
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And the current Government of Israel is in the process of eliminating Gaza as a potential Palestinian State. The difference is that while both have the intent the Israeli's have the means. The obvious question is since Hamas knew that why on earth did they launch the October the 7th Attacks?

Of course in the broader context of this conflict no particular attack or injustice is relevant. What matters is that there are two groups of nutters who think their god gives them a mandate to wipe the other side out. It's hard to see a solution to that one.

I have previously suggested that they should have peace talks where a chair is provided for each of their gods. They should then listen to whichever one of them turns up. If neither turn up then it's just down to retribution for historic wrongs, greed and racism. Sure that'll be a doddle to sort out.
 
We can talk about the rights and wrongs on either side and wade through the historical accounts all the way back to biblical times but it wont be resolved here.

When I was talking about the political class and governing bodies to enact their rules I was talking specifically about institutions of EU and UEFA. Eurovision organisers have clearly taken an inconsistent approach from their traditional 'non-political' stance to being political and applying their politics inconsistently with regard to their views on illegal occupation and annexation of lands.

UEFA have their own rules about illegal occupying forces but are not applying it against Israel.

And the most damning of all is the inaction of the EU.

Ireland is traditionally a very strong pro-EU country. Fine Gael is arguably the most pro-EU party in the country yet here we have Minister McEntee openly claiming that EU credibility is gone with regard to what the Israeli government is doing in Palestine. I don't think she was talking off the cuff. She in NY at the UN and she clearly conveying the Irish government position.

Regardless of your views on the Palestine/Israel conflict, it is now causing fractures within Irish society and throughout Europe and in US. And for what purpose? So that a cabinet that has wanted for war crimes leader and an actual convicted terrorist in its cabinet can attempt a genocide?

Surely those leaning towards solidarity to Israel must recognise the damage that Netanyahu and his associates are not only causing to the cause of Israel, but wider afield to Europe and America too?
 
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Well with AI we all have the ability to research in detail every product, service and investment we buy and boycott Isreal that way.
 
JoeRoberts said:
Well with AI we all have the ability to research in detail every product, service and investment we buy and boycott Isreal that way.
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That's one way of doing it but not very effective or efficient. Not sure it would restore credibility to EU if that was the approach. More reputational damage I suspect.
 
Just to be clear, I have no intention of shaping this matter as a left/right political issue. What is happening in Palestine is first and foremost a humanitarian issue.

Israel can't keep denying what the world knows

"[Antonio Guterres} said that he had never seen the level and scale of death and destruction as he witnessed in terms of the Israeli governments war on Gaza in the aftermath of the horrific Hamas attack in October preceding the war"

I welcome the position of the Irish government but the situation has gone beyond words of condemnation and the politicians are too far beyond the curve that instead, footballers, singers, performers, are left with the dilemma of conscience for matters beyond their control.

- Stop the game with Israel
- End the EU/Israel trade association agreement
- End armed sales to Israel
- Allow independent journalists into Gaza
- Ban Israel from UEFA/FIFA
- Ban Israel from Eurovision
 
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