Solidarity with Palestine

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WolfeTone

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I'm sick of this Israeli apartheid state now. What they are doing is not even occupation, it is annexation of the Palestinian state.
I saw a good tweet recently.
The US gives Israel anti-rocket defence to protect against Hamas attacks and minimise casualties.
Palestine has nothing to protect against Israeli missile attacks carried out by military aircraft supplied by the US.
Why not provide Palestine the same anti- missile defences?
 
WolfeTone said:
I'm sick of this Israeli apartheid state now. What they are doing is not even occupation, it is annexation of the Palestinian state.
I saw a good tweet recently.
The US gives Israel anti-rocket defence to protect against Hamas attacks and minimise casualties.
Palestine has nothing to protect against Israeli missile attacks carried out by military aircraft supplied by the US.
Why not provide Palestine the same anti- missile defences?
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Wolfie that is silliness and other than this one post I will not be sucked down this rabbit hole.
The US has designated Hammas a terrorist organisation. If this outfit can launch 1,000 missiles into Israel when Israel has a level of control over its territory what chance would Israel have in a two state solution?
Note that Hammas, Iran et al are not fighting for a 2 state solution. They are fighting to wipe Israel "off the map". They make the aims of our own terrorists look moderate.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
I will not be sucked down this rabbit hole.
The US has designated Hammas a terrorist organisation.
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I have little intention in engaging with the mindset that thinks if the US say something that therefore, it must be.

The international community has designated Israeli and Palestinian territories. This recent outbreak is a direct result of further encroachment of Israeli settlers into Palestinian territory and evictions of Palestinians from their homes.

The provision of anti-missile defences on both sides would minimise the civilian casualties.
 
Israel has levelled another tower block that houses international media organisations.
I think this is classed as a war crime.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Note that Hammas, Iran et al are not fighting for a 2 state solution. They are fighting to wipe Israel "off the map".
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In case you hadn't noticed, it is Palestine that is being wiped off the map.

Clearly such a proposition is anethma to your thinking?
So here is a proposal, Israel gets behind its lines as agreed internationally and both Palestine and Israel are provided with sufficient anti-missile defences that make such attacks near redundant as possible.
 
WolfeTone said:
I have little intention in engaging with the mindset that thinks if the US say something that therefore, it must be.
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I was answering your question:
Wolfie in OP said:
Why not provide Palestine the same anti- missile defences?
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I was explaining why the US does not do so since by "same" I thought you meant the US but I see the question can be interpreted as being more open ended. For example why doesn't Ireland supply them? More realistically why doesn't Russia, China, EU, UK etc. Why do you think these folk don't try and level the pitch?
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
More realistically why doesn't Russia, China, EU, UK etc. Why do you think these folk don't try and level the pitch?
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And to be more precise, when talking about "levelling the pitch" I'm talking about providing anti-missile defences which are very effective against rocket attacks and not supplying offensive military weaponry.
Like these folk

Italian dockers refuse to load arms

A tactic that was applied by Irish transport workers in 1920 that was more effective in bringing an end to British rule in Ireland than anything GOIRA ever did.

The net result, hopefully, would be nullify aggressive military attacks.

Why the rest of the world is not doing more, considering Israels continuing violations of UN Charter obligations and international law I don't know.
 
It’s hard to know which side to dislike more. The Palestinian people are continually sacrificed on the altar of the political aims of Iran, Jordan, and Egypt (the Saudi’s are now allied of Israel) but the group who treats them with the most callous disregard and has the least concern for the deaths of their children are Hamas. They are the reason that a Far-Right government led by a criminal and propped up by religious fundamentalists, keeps being re-elected in Israel. The last thing Hamas wants is a two State solution as their raison d’etre is the destruction of Israel and any amount of suffering is worth that goal.



How many more reasons do we need before we acknowledge that religion is a poison that corrupts the rational mind and allows us to justify the more ghastly horrors and destruction.
 
We in Europe are really to blame for the hard line strategy the Israeli army now takes. For centuries the Jews were shunted around Europe and were the bogey men blamed for everything that went wrong. This was long before the Nazis, then the safest place for them after centuries of them being displaced turned out to be Poland, then of course the Nazis came and the rest we know.
They learned the hard lesson that being amiable or agreeable does not cut it in the long term you have to be hard and tough, that is the only thing they understand in the ME.
The Palestinians were always colonised , the ottomans were no easy task masters and they were delighted when ottoman rule ended after WW1
 
Purple said:
the group who treats them with the most callous disregard and has the least concern for the deaths of their children are Hamas
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I think this is the insidious propaganda being peddled by Israel and its allies (not accusing you of peddling it).
The facts suggest otherwise. It was Israel, in evicting Palestinians from their homes in Palestinian territories that sparked this recent outbreak.
They know exactly what the response will be from Hamas and know exactly what they intend to inflict thereafter.
They are not stupid, but they treat the rest of the world as stupid because they know they can get away with it.

Purple said:
They are the reason that a Far-Right government led by a criminal and propped up by religious fundamentalists, keeps being re-elected in Israel. The last thing Hamas wants is a two State solution as their raison d’etre is the destruction of Israel and any amount of suffering is worth that goal.
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The people of Israel vote in Nyetanyahu. The are peddled the myth that Hamas, despite its stated ambition, is a real and significant threat to the security of Israel when the exact opposite is the case.

Here is a good example of some of the extremist mindsets in Israel towards Palestinians. From about 3mins in.

Extremism

The same extremist mindset exists on the Islamic side towards Jews. But Israel has made great in-roads to making peace with its neighbours over the years. The only people it is unwilling to make a peace settlement with is the Palestinians. Working towards a two-state solution as agreed internationally is the way to disarm Hamas. It is the continuing encroachment into Palestianian territory in breach of UN resolutions and international law that is the feeder for Hamas. Hamas may have the language of tyranny but actions speak louder than words and they have little to zero chance of taking on the might of Israel.
Israels future is secure. It is the destruction and annexation of the Palestinian state and its people is what is occuring right now.

Purple said:
How many more reasons do we need before we acknowledge that religion is a poison that corrupts the rational mind and allows us to justify the more ghastly horrors and destruction.
Click to expand...

No argument there, but I don't think its going to have much impact.
 
joe sod said:
The Palestinians were always colonised , the ottomans were no easy task masters and they were delighted when ottoman rule ended after WW1
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It's worth noting that a large proportion of the Palestinian population moved into the area to work for Jewish settlers during the early Zionist projects in the 19th Century, funded by rich Jewish people like the Rothschilds.

It's also worth noting that the Jews were driven out of the area and the Palestinians planted there in much the same way as the Ulster Scots were in Northern Ireland so if you support the Palestinians you have to support the Loyalists in the North.

None of that justifies Israel's over-reaction, land grabs and the generally despicable way they treat the Palestinians but this isn't a 1950's Western and there's no "Goodies" and "Baddies".
 
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@Purple I think part of the problem is this continuing referencing back to past. There is nothing wrong with that unless it continues to tie future generations to acrimonious stand points.

The two-state solution is the best opportunity to develop a settled peace. That cannot happen if Israel continues its bombardments and annexation.
Similarly it cannot develop if Hamas were militarily capable of destabilising Israel.

As regard Ireland. The two state solution is being implemented. While a significant body of Irish people oppose it, the critical element is that through the GFA any change to NI status within UK can only come about through exclusively peaceful and democratic means.
The gun has been removed from Irish politics. Threats to destabilise the political institutions because of the NI Protocol (achieved through democratic means) only serve to feed a vacuum that militants want.

I would suggest that with Palestine / Israel that both sides are equipped with anti-missile and other security measures that nullify rocket attacks to as great extent possible.

Hard to imagine when reading stuff like this

US blocks UN statement on halting violence
 
Purple said:
Jews were driven out of the area and the Palestinians planted there in much the same way as the Ulster Scots were in Northern Ireland so if you support the Palestinians you have to support the Loyalists in the North.
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Not up to your usual high standard Purple.
 
Interesting opinion piece in the New York Times on what would happen If the Left Got Its Wish for Israel.

Basically the thrust of it is that if Israel agreed to everything the Liberal left wants Iran, through Hamas, would militarise Gaza to an extent that would necessitate an Israeli invasion, resulting in far more deaths. Lebanon would also not accept any peace deal and with an emboldened Iran and a new Palestinian State could destabilise Jordan. Hamas would also then Militarise the West Bank, further destabilising Jordan.

I'm not sure I fully agree but it's an interesting perspective.
 
Yes, interesting piece but lots to not agree with. My impression is that he is justifying the Israeli response as a policy of "... periodically degrading the group’s military capabilities through targeted strikes".

I don't doubt that an opening of borders would result in the recommencment of suicide bombers.

Thomas Friedman, also of NY Times, gives good insight on Mcwilliams podcast today.
He says that Israel was very close to forming, for the first time ever, a broad coalition government including Israeli Labour Party and, more significantly, an Arab Islamic Party.
This would (could) have the consequences of sidelining Netanyahu and possibly Hamas.
Netanyahu he says is fundamentally opposed to Arabs ever being in government in Israel.
This is the policy of apartheid.
A broad coalition dominated by moderate views including that of Arab Islamic persuasion could open the door to a sustained and successful peace strategy.

If you were fundamentally opposed to this, then why not instigate policy's designed to provoke and antaganoise invoking a military response?
 
WolfeTone said:
Yes, interesting piece but lots to not agree with. My impression is that he is justifying the Israeli response as a policy of "... periodically degrading the group’s military capabilities through targeted strikes".

I don't doubt that an opening of borders would result in the recommencment of suicide bombers.

Thomas Friedman, also of NY Times, gives good insight on Mcwilliams podcast today.
He says that Israel was very close to forming, for the first time ever, a broad coalition government including Israeli Labour Party and, more significantly, an Arab Islamic Party.
This would (could) have the consequences of sidelining Netanyahu and possibly Hamas.
Netanyahu he says is fundamentally opposed to Arabs ever being in government in Israel.
This is the policy of apartheid.
A broad coalition dominated by moderate views including that of Arab Islamic persuasion could open the door to a sustained and successful peace strategy.

If you were fundamentally opposed to this, then why not instigate policy's designed to provoke and antaganoise invoking a military response?
Click to expand...
I agree with you and hope that a broad coalition is formed. Of course the last people who want that are Hamas as it would give strength to Fatah.
 
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