PTSB PTSB 1 year discounted tracker - they have put me back on the right rate

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Stitcher

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Dee and PFS,
I find it incredibly that the two contract wording s are so different. In Oct 08 they insinuated in Dee's contract that she would have to choose something, so an option Letter might be expected, but that wording is so weird. I've read again and am not sure exactly what it means, definitely ambiguous. I definitely think you should be in the review.
 

DeeMc2017

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Stitcher,

I think PTSB are all over the place on this and and I continue to engage with them pointing out the quite blatent inaccuracy of their options letter.

As time goes on I am more and more confident that they'll have to concede.

Their documentation and correspondence from this period was inaccurate, ambiguous and misleading on several counts.
Our cases are so similar so I’m sure they’ll have to concede to you. It did any make any sense why they wouldn’t as the wording of your special conditions is even clearer than mine that you should have the option of the tracker. Keep fighting it
 

Stitcher

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PFS, Dee,
I agree. I really think they are over a barrel on this but they will fight all the way. It will be great to see what CB review says next Dec,/march/June. I believe we are right but will have to battle all the way.
Dee, you don't know what we have been through with no result to date. Talk to PK as the more of us challenge them collectively, the stronger we are. I still think we have a major battle ahead, even if the central bank finds in our favour.
 

Brendan Burgess

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"But Mr Kissane said up to 600 Permanent TSB customers had been put back on what the bank claims is a tracker, but is set at a margin of 3.35pc over the ECB rate. Mr Kissane said this could not be reasonably regarded as a tracker rate.

People who are due a tracker should be paying a margin over the ECB of between 0.6pc and 1.35pc."

ECB +3.35% is a tracker, just as is ECB +10%.

There is nothing in the definition of "tracker" to say that the rate must be below 1.35%.

ptsb is claiming that it has put everyone back on the tracker rate to which they were entitled. If they have made that statement without qualification, it looks as if the Central Bank agrees with their approach.

Brendan
 

core123

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I hear what you are saying Brendan and it makes sense. However the only issue I have is that I was on a discount rate when I took out the mortgage. If I had no discount then my rate for the life of my mortgage would have been ECB +1.1%. When my discount rate expired I would have thought I'd go back to the rate when I took out my mortgage (naively I know). The discount tracker products though a bonus for the couple of years I had it have turned into a noose around my neck. The difference between 1.1% and 2.25% is huge for me every month.
 

PadKiss

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Hi all I had to reply as I find it interesting that words can be taken to mean what was not intended but some would rather concentrate on that to prove or attempt to disprove a point of view. What is clear and is outlined are the following words;

"The interest rate applicable to Tracker Mortgage Loans is made up of the European Central Bank Refinancing Rate ("the ECB Rate") plus a percentage over the ECB rate. The amount of the percentage over the ECB Rate will depend on the amount of the loan and that percentage will not be exceeded during the term of the loan". PTSB date 2016

The loan term begins at the commencement of the contract whether PTSB like it or not. I would ask all to consider the following by means of trying to understand the matter properly;
  • this lender is attempting to retro fit a position to a contract that was clear from the outset.
  • if this is to stand then it was never a tracker mortgage in the first place
  • if there is any (yes any) ambiguity about the contract then the position most favourable to the consumer must prevail, that is not opinion but law
  • for the discounted tracker rates, what were these rates discounted from... the sky!!!!!
  • how have all these loans resulted with the same tracker margin irrespective of loan size, loan to values etc. which were fundamental in dictating the original margin used.
The question I would ask readers to consider (especially PTSB staff/readers) why were the tracker margins taken from contracts in the first place in late 2006, do PTSB even know the answer. How are some accounts back on the margins used in the original contract and others are not.
Brendan: A tracker margin can be any thing above ECB but it is understood to be set at the outset of the loan and "will not be exceeded during the term of the loan", the exact opposite to what PTSB are attempting, an attempt being tried on after the event. Brendan if you agree with PTSB then say it, I dont. Then there is the old worn out phrase from the bus advert many years ago "I dont know what a Tracker Mortgage is". It remains the question to be answered, but their own documentation answers the question.
Respectfully do not try to impose something I did not say or mean, into your answer. What I find most interesting it that this bank would be believed by so many after what it has done to their customers, but again just my thoughts and what would i know. This is the reason I used the words "BALONEY" because that is what PTSB's position on the matter is.
Padraic
 

PFS7979

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Padraic makes some very clear and relevant points here.

a) why were these mortgages labelled tracker mortgages when in fact no margin was stated beyond the initial 12 months?

b) where there is ambiguity in the wording, law favours the interpretation most favourable to the consumer.

Along with the above, I have pointed out the inconsistency between the PTSB Special Condition relevant to interest rate and its options letter.

There are numerous issues with this batch of PTSB mortgages
 

Stitcher

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Reassuring post from Padraic.
PTSB of course won't like that and have been steadfastly been hiding behind their obfuscating language in contracts. Let's hope their new Chairman, Richard Elliott, takes a leaf out of BOIs book and announces that they have identified another 6000 customers impacted on top of those already considered.
The rate issue will go to court if PTSB don't deal with it.
 

meepman

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Does anyone know what the tracker rates were in february 2008. I was on the 1 year discounted tracker of 0.75% for 1 year. But what was the actual tracker rate at the time, how much was I discounted? I am sure I was discounted 0.1% so that would mean it was 0.85% over ECB but cannot confirm that.
 

Thomas

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If you are PTSB and using their lovely (!!) applicable tracker rate which is referred to in a lot of mortgage agreements and applies when your discounted period ends I think it would be 1.25% (as it was that in march 2008) and then it moved to 1.68%. What your rate was discounted (at the start of the mortgage) from could be anything from 0.75% to 1.1% as it depended on things like your ltv, mortgage size, how PTSB viewed you as a customer etc.
 

Stitcher

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Meepman, I drew down a discounted tracker in Feb 2008. It was ecb + 0.8 , discounted for a year to ECB+ 0.6%. I had enquired about their 0.8% Tracker that I had seen a few months earlier and was told it was discounted for a year to 0.6%. unfortunately the 0.8% follow on rate was not in the contract, only the confusing condition 9. Hence my ongoing battle with ptsb. Discounts at the time were about 0.2%.

When did you start your mortgage application? PK probably has the rates at that time. I have print outs of rates for Nov Dec 2007 - as I had started my application in Oct Nov 2007.
 

PFS7979

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Stitcher,

I'd imagine the PTSB "discounted trackers" such as ours would not be significant in terms of number of accounts as in 2008 the Banks were slamming the breaks on issuing mortgages and probably only a trickle were being issued by end of 2008
 

Stitcher

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I still take comfort in the fact that Ptsb said there was an error in Deck77's case. And hope it's only a matter of time for the rest of us discounted tracker people to be considered Impacted. Roll on December when we should get an update.
 

LTL1234

Registered User
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Im also a 1 year discounted tracker PTSB customer who was given an options letter after 11 months & no info on what the initial tracker was discounted from. I spoke to PTSB again last week & they said the review was almost completed but could confirm that they deemed my case as Not Impacted & that any additional customers identified as impacted were sent a letter last week. I am hoping to pursue this further with Padraic Kissane who on an initial review thinks we do have a case.
 
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Stitcher

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LTL, that does not sound good that PTSB have already notified the additional impacted customers last week. No 6000 extra customers discovered like BOI. Guess we are not on ptsb's list. Time to up the pressure again. Very disappointing. I am with Padraic too so it will be good to hear what he has to say. Definitely up for a protest outside PTSB somewhere if this continues.
 

LTL1234

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Hi Stitcher, disappointing yes but unfortunately not too surprising from PTSB. They were being very generic in their responses & it seemed to take me a while to word my questions in a way that I didn't get the scripted reply! When I asked them to confirm where the review was specifically to my account they confirmed letters were issued last week & I am deemed not impacted. They didn't confirm if these additional customers were the final total or if they have more to identify. I am curious if there are a large or small number of accounts with the discounted tracker issue.
 

PFS7979

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LTL/ Stitcher,

Its clear to me that its down to the Central Bank now to determine that our accounts are impacted. There are two issues in my view:
1) Why was rate options letter issued, which referred to a current rate option expiring? The special condition on interest rate was silent on existance of any rate option or future choices.

2) Why were our mortgages classed as discounted tracker? The reasonable expectation was that a discount of say 0.25/0.5% for a year before reverting to the long term margin over ECB automatically and in line with the contract wording. How can consumer protection code allow Bank lure in Borrowers on this discount before hitting a 2.5% increase in margin!! Or deliberately insert another product in the options letter with absolutely no warning of implications on choosing the SVR option?

In fact there are several layers of mishandling of our accounts.

I have raised these issues in writing to Central Bank and believe it may help if others do likewise....

It appears a change in Leadership at Bank of Ireland prompted them to put their hands up on all impacted accounts. However, there has been no such change at the top of PTSB and they will be brought kicking and screaming by the Central Bsnk to admitting all impacted accounts
 

Stitcher

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PFS,
yes I think another round of letters is in order.
And yes there are several points of issue.

So do you think BOI preempted the central bank review results due in Dec/march ? And ptsb are still keeping Head in the sand until forced to do something?

I suppose when I saw Deck77's story, and Ptsb admitting there was an error, and putting him back on the right rate', that that had to apply to all discounted trackers. So I fully expected to be hearing from them sooner rather than later!!!

There was a new Ptsb chairman appointed last year, a Robert Elliott, who has waxed lyrical about looking after customers and doing the right thing!!!! So I had some hope again that someone new would want to clear the decks and move on.

My only issue was that he had been on the NatWest legal team that got the convictions of four high profile bankers overturned in the appeal court in the 1990s which had the effect of seriously inhibiting the serious fraud office pursuing cases against bankers. See interview and other item on him at links below:

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/features/interview-robert-elliott-linklaters/5060603.article

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/uk-lawyer-robert-elliott-to-be-next-chairman-of-permanent-tsb-1.3001274

But we can mobilise more sustained adverse publicity for them if they prefer that route. My Compensation demand has just gone up again!!
 
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