PTSB PTSB 1 year discounted tracker - they have put me back on the right rate

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core123

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Hi All,

Just to let you know I called PTSB today in regards this issue. They told me it was all under review at the moment and that hopefully I should hear news on this before the end of Christmas. I did mention that Declan who started this post who origianlly was put on a 2.25% after his discount expired (the same as myself) has now been put onto 1.25% + ECB and will be compensated for what he overpaid. They said that maybe his case was one of the first to be reviewed and that is why he was changed (although Declan did say he contacted them and not visa versa). I think I will follow up with the financial ombudsman anyway to see if I do have a case but if I hear any news I'll keep you up to date.

Regards

Ian
 

core123

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I agree, the tracker was 2.25% + ECB = 4.25% at the time. The variable was 4.05%. I decided to choose the tracker as was expecting the variable to increase. And it did. Still I got into some financial difficulties and am currently on a warehouse. If I had stayed on a much lower rate, this would not have happened. We are talking about E500 a month difference here.
Yes I really believe the rate was offered at 2.25% + ECB in order to get us off trackers. I was also offered a better variable rate then the tracker rate but fortunately decided to stick with the tracker but I'm sure a lot of people would have changed to variable rate which was a big win for the bank over the last few years.
 

joe351980

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The terms of any contract would have to imply that the tracker mortgage available at time of signing contract was the one available for the life of the mortgage. Why else would you sign with that bank.

Why didn't banks just roll people on to a tracker of plus 5, 10 or 20 percent.

Why were they so eager to get people on SVR.

The more I think about it, the rate has to be set from date of initial contract.
There is no other way of looking at it.

Anyone could argue the reason you choose that bank was for the tracker rate at that time and no other reason.

Even when fixing or taking a discount option or any other option.

If you study all the contracts closely, this is the opinion of the banks. If it wasn't they wouldn't of taking you off tracker. Just set it at a high margin and leave you on it. Case closed
 

Lightening

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I have put this on a couple of threads I think it will help!

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A quote from Bernard Byrne AIB at the Oireachtas Committee Meeting recently;

"Our view of the prevailing rate is that it is the rate that prevails at the time at which the product is offered and that is how we consider it".
 

Thomas

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I think this is helpful in some cases but not all. When I looked at the transcripts of the presentation he was using that argument to defend the 3.67% rate. I think he took the view that the customer had a fixed rate from the start and when they rolled onto the tracker at the end of the fixed period they were offered a tracker at that date with the appropriate margin at that date i.e. 3.67%.

Therefore for PTSB people who started on a fixed (similar to the AIB people) I don't think it helps but for people who started on a tracker and then fixed for a period or finished their discounted tracker period, I would argue they always had a tracker and so it was not a new product offered and so the prevailing rate should be the initial rate in the contract (i.e. the pre discounted rate). I am in this category and in the process of submitting my file to the FSO investigations team (mediation didn't work out as PTSB would not budge from the CAP decision) and that is what I will be stating in in my submission!
 

Thomas

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From another post - below are for investment loans so I think in general home loans are 0.1% lower:
17/4/07 - 7/12/07 =ECB +1.1%
8/12/07 - 30/5/08 =ecb+1.35%
31/5/08 - 8/8/08 =ecb +1.35%
9/8/08 - 19/12/08 = ecb +1.78%
20/12/08 - 30/8/09= ecb +2.35%
31/8/09 - current = ecb+ 3.35%
 

core123

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Thanks Thomas. My 2 year tracker discount rate finished in Feb 2009 so looking at that I see why I was put on ECB +2.25. However the Original posters discounted rate also finished in 2009 and thus was intially put on ECB + 2.25 but now they have reverted him to ECB +1.25. That's the part I can't figure out why did they put it back to 1.25 if it finished in 2009 the same as myself.
 

Stitcher

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Core123,
I took out a one year discounted tracker in Jan 2008. However, I went in initially looking for their 0.8% Tracker rate. I was told that " this has now been discounted for a year to 0.6%" . they were discounting a number of Tracker products by 0.2% around that time. Thus the undiscounted rate was usually 0.2% above the discount rate. Deck77's pre discount rate was1.05. Yours was likely to have been 1.2 or 1.99

People who took out discounted trackers a few months earlier reverted to the undiscounted rate automatically!!!!!

The thing is that they then started to insert ambiguous conditions in contacts that enabled them to do exactly what they have done. They knew exactly what they were doing but did they explain that to us, the customers? The answer is a big fat NO!!!!!
 

Deck77

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Hi

I got the options letter in February 2009 i think stating the tracker +2.25 or fixed or variable.

Hope that helps

Declan
 

PFS7979

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Hi Declan,

Did the special condition relating to interest rate on your Letter of Offer refer to you being required to select a rate option after 12 months? Or did it state after 12 months : "the then current PTSB tracker rate will apply"?

Secondly, did the letter accompanying these rate options state: "your current rate option will end on...... "

You should check this. If thats the case, why did the Bank offer the rate options without being asked and why did they use a misleading statement about current rate option ending?
 

Somar

Registered User
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Thanks Tomas
Your margins are spot on. Was in contact with PTSB today for confirmation on the margins.
On drawdown in March 2007, tracker rate was 1.25% above ECB and that is the margin rate that should have applied for the life time of the tracker, whether one fixed for a short period or not.
Asked PTSB today to explain how 1.25% became 2.35% above ECB rate in 2 years, how was it calculated, what was it based on? LTV on property was the same, amount left to pay was nearly the same also, so where did this manufactured rate come from?
They couldn't give me an answer to this question and said they would have to come back to me tomorrow.

Anyone coming out of a fixed rate period in early 2009 and drew down their loan
2 years previous to this should have received a tracker option of ECB + 1.1 or 1.25%.
Instead these rates figures were inflated to 2.25 and 2.35% to make the slightly cheaper SVR more attractive.

Clever banking tactics it must be said, but this will all come back to bite PTSB badly in the coming months without a doubt.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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I think that Deck's case is very different from most others affected by this issue.

Although his contract is the same, at the time he did ask the question what rate he would be going on when the discount was up.

Our loan doc had "prevalling rate" on it. When we were taking out mortgage thru broker Cornmaket, I had specifically asked what was the rate going to be above ECB rate when I came off the discounted rate. When i was speaking to person in PTSB he could see in emails where I had asked the question. This might be part of reason that I got the correct rate now.
Although, he has not said what the answer was, ptsb might be influenced by the fact that he asked.

Otherwise, it's strange why he got put back on this rate and no one else with a "prevailing rate" letter has been.

Brendan
 

Stitcher

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156
I agree with core 123, how would they be able to decide which contract has an "Error" and which not? What about those who assumed that the rate would revert to the undiscounted rate at the end of the discount period, like it always did before? Did they have two different contracts then for the same product? Why have they changed the name of this type of product now to a "managed variable rate" also Deck77 asked his broker not the bank.
I too got information on the same mortgage from a broker who wrote on the paperwork "rolling on to 0.8% after first year discount rate of 0.6%. "I didn't go with the broker in the end, decided to go direct to bank.

I think all discounted Tracker holders with contract wording similar to Deck77s contract have to be considered in the same light - an Error was made and the undiscounted rate should be applied.
 

DeeMc2017

Registered User
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i had a 1 yr discounted rate of 1.3% above the ecb and after the year was up I got an option letter which told me my rate was about to 'expire' which contained various different variables, fixed and a high tracker rate which I was never going to pick(3.25%+ecb which I think was 2%). I went with the variable at the time which was the lowest (4.3%) ive recently gotten a letter to say they were putting me back on the 3.25% +ecb and getting redressed. The wording in the special conditions state - On expiry of the discount period, the interest rate will be such rate as may be selected by the Applicant or such variable interest rate (which may not be a tracker variable rate) as will apply in the absence of such selection. do you think I have any case to go back on the lower rate of 1.3+ecb or should I be happy with what they've given me back?
 

joe351980

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Why would they put you on the rate iy +3.25%. They gaveyou this option already and you refused it. So by right you shouldn't even be in the review.

like I've said to previous posters I would ask, from what rate was your discounted tracker calculated from.

This can't be from the 3.25 rate as this rate wasn't in existence at time of offer.
I wouldn't be happy with this at all
 

DeeMc2017

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Why would they put you on the rate iy +3.25%. They gaveyou this option already and you refused it. So by right you shouldn't even be in the review.

like I've said to previous posters I would ask, from what rate was your discounted tracker calculated from.

This can't be from the 3.25 rate as this rate wasn't in existence at time of offer.
I wouldn't be happy with this at all
By right I shouldn’t be in the review?? Where are u getting this from? If that’s the case then neither should half the others on this thread? I really don’t think ptsb would be shelling out thousands to me if I wasn’t owed it?
 

Stitcher

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I agree, they should not have used the term discounted Tracker as what they were really selling was a one year tracker. Discounted means discounted from a base rate. If that rate did not apply after the discount period, then it was not a discounted rate. They put the special condition in the contract to cover themselves but forget to change the name. They never explained to customers that they were changing what used to be a discounted tracker for the life of the mortgage to a one year tracker.

I am arguing my case, since 2009 and am in the central bank review. PTSB don't believe I have a case but Padraic Kissane does. I am hoping that CB will decide. I believe that if Deck77's contract entitled him to the undiscounted rate then we too are entitled. We should not have been sent options letters.

Dee, your contract seems a bit different. When did you draw down the mortgage? Did they explain what would happen after the discount period?
What does a discounted tracker mean? This is the point they fall down on.
 

DeeMc2017

Registered User
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Stitcher I drew down in Oct 08 so they were obviously getting well wise to the wording they were putting in the special conditions. We took out through a broker and I honestly can’t even remember discussing what would happen after the discount was up. Very naieve of me I know now. Keep us posted on how ur case goes.
 

joe351980

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Hi Dee, I believe you should be in the review but your case highlights the problems that PTSB are going to have with regards this inflated rate. They already gave you an option of availing of this infltated rate, but you choose SVR. So why are they offering it to you again. You could have choosing SVR again!!!!

I don't see the legal obligation to offer the same tracker margin again. I would be hopeful that this is a stepping stone to getting restored to what should be your proper margin.

What did PTSB do wrong initially?

Was it not automatically rolling you into tracker rate. Then why give you the option of SVR this time?

I think it's because they artificially altered their rates (both tracker and SVR) to make it more advantageous for themselves.
 

PFS7979

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Dee,

I'm pleased for you that you have been reinstated to tracker. I note the outstanding issue is "what was the rate discounted from in the first place"

However, I also drew my mortgage from ptsb in Nov 08, selected the exact same variable rate you did and PTSB refusing to acknowledge my account impacted at all. Not alone that, the wording on my special condition specifically stated "the then current PTSB tracker rate will apply" after 12 month discount period. It was silent on the options that were referred to in your special conditions.

So it appears they are not treating all people in the same manner despite having practically the same issue....
 
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