KBC KBC giving me back my tracker!

peemac

Frequent Poster
Messages
647
@Rakitom

The default rate should always be the rate detailed in the original contract.

Above is a difficult situation and @KBCTracker may be between a rock and hard place as the original mortgage was a svr.

You'd have to examine the documents signed when moving from svr to tracker and then how the move to fixed was done.

If @KBCTracker contacted kbc about fixed options, it would weaken their case, if however they responded to an unsolicited fixed rate offer, they'd have a case
 

Maureen999

Registered User
Messages
8
Hi do not sure if i should post here. We were advised by letter that our morgage would reduce in march. part of it would revert to tracker . Our repayment is the 8th it has not reduced has this happened to any others
 

peemac

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Messages
647
I fixed in November 2006 for 2 years. What was the date of the “flyer”?
The flyer / communication was to brokers. Brokers bring new business to banks. It would not apply to mortgages previously taken out and moved to a fixed period after commencement .
 

Wonder

Registered User
Messages
37
The cummunication /flyer did not say it
Was for new customers it said all fixed
Rates will roll onto tracker, end of story.
 

peemac

Frequent Poster
Messages
647
The cummunication /flyer did not say it
Was for new customers it said all fixed
Rates will roll onto tracker, end of story.
Brokers primarily bring new business and it would be understood by brokers to be about new business. Unless you can prove otherwise, I would think it's a path with a dead end .
 

ask2017

Registered User
Messages
19
August 2007 I topped up and went onto fixed. This part of my mortgage was not returned to tracker last week so I will be appealing this. I had my main mortgage on tracker from 2004 and a top up from 2005 also on tracker, I fixed these two parts in May 2007 and these two parts have been returned to tracker.
 

Darn40

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Messages
70
Brokers primarily bring new business and it would be understood by brokers to be about new business. Unless you can prove otherwise, I would think it's a path with a dead end .
Padraic kissane thinks otherwise he said it applies to all fixed rates
He is a broker is he not ?
 

Darn40

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Messages
70
The cummunication /flyer did not say it
Was for new customers it said all fixed
Rates will roll onto tracker, end of story.
The flyer is clear it says all fixed rates, unfortunately looks like central bank has sided with Kbc.
We need to change their mind Padraic kissane is the man for this
But also we all need to keep pressure on Kbc, don’t let them away with it.
 

Rakitom

Frequent Poster
Messages
93
Hi Don’t mean to but in,

But Peemac seems to be presenting the facts. Not fiction.

It would seem the CB has agreed with with KBC on this interpretation as explained by PeeMac, remember the analysis was conducted by Dolite.

They would have been seeking clarity, through this last stage.

However P Kissan is more than likely forcing the position for some still affected by the tracker scam. I would recommend you contact him.

This is just how it works. As you can see from the latest 650 cohort. The bank only agreed to rollover in November.

Weather brokers where handling new and existing business undated, will be the arguement of interpretation.

The bread crumbs will eventually lead to the truth.

But at the moment all you guys are in a holding pattern and the reality is it may never come to fruition.
 

peemac

Frequent Poster
Messages
647
Padraic kissane thinks otherwise he said it applies to all fixed rates
He is a broker is he not ?
I don't think does think that - what he is arguing is that all fixed rates drawn down from that date even if applied for before that date, should be included and I would agree with that as the contract is only sealed upon drawdown.

I don't think Padraic has ever said that those who took out a variable rate mortgage or those who started on a fixed rate in 2003/2004/2005 and refixed at the end of that to another fixed period could argue on the basis of the communication - if anything, i think he actually said they are not included (in response to listener query on newstalk)
 

Johnc6

Registered User
Messages
36
Hi
for all those customers pre Nov 06 on fixed moving on the Lenders Prevailing rate but ended up on SVR I think it's not just the flyer but an accumulation of issues that the Bank interpreted in their own favour which needs to be challenged through the appeals / complaints process.

1: When Fixed Rate ended we were put on SVR not Prevailing Variable Rate, at that time pre 2010 KBC had no customer documentation to support what SVR was.
2: According to Central Bank Statistics the Prevailing (Most common) Variable rates with Irish banks during 2006-2009 was the Tracker Rate.
3: The Flyer was meant for their current fixed rate business as highlighted by Padraic at the committee during the meeting last week.
3: IIB Mortgage Handbook stated that Fixed rate customers can choose between Fixed, Variable and Tracker at the end of the Fixed Rate period. The choice is yours.
4: Central bank Regulations: GENERAL PRINCIPLES of Consumer Protection Code, I believe this was not followed by KBC in the best interest of the customer.
5 Critical Data Access documentation missing from pack returned to customers.
There may be more points that I can't think of just now,
 
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Johnc6

Registered User
Messages
36
Extract from Padraic's meeting:
‘All IIB Homeloan fixed rates will now roll onto tracker rate upon expiring. Offering your clients even better value
It did not apply to new business only. Why….., because all lenders at this time were reacting to the launch by Danske Bank of the Loan to Value Tracker product. KBC did so with this announcement in late 2006.
It applied to existing business as well as new business but was primarily directed towards existing business.
Indeed, the new business aspect of the communication was covered in bold print with a further offering which was available to
“ALL NEW CUSTOMERS* who want to take out a mortgage with IIB Homeloans.”
I show this to highlight the differentiation between existing business and new business in the communication.
I will be asked today what is the current position in relation to these matters and unfortunately I don’t know the answer as I do not know what was agreed by KBC in their discussions with the Central Bank.
What I know for certain is that the communication of November 2006 was not withdrawn in February 2008 as claimed.
 

gnf_ireland

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,367
Here’s a nightmare scenario for KBC.
If you invested the money in bit coin every month for the last 7 years what would your return be.
I don’t think this is a normal investment scinario.
But would like to know the answer?
To be fair, this is another hindsight scenario. Unless you had been regularly investing in bitcoin in advance of this, it really is an unrealistic event. You could say the same about each and every horse race for the last 7 years as well - and that would be much higher compounding than bitcoin.

But a real scenario which someone could be in: Regularly investing in a pension fund but had to reduce contributions due to being overcharged on the mortgage. I am wondering what would happen in this case - used to put in say 800 euro a month, but had to drop to 200 euro a month at or around the same time the overcharging happened, or stopped paying AVC's or whatever. I imagine in this case they would have a reasonable claim ...
 

gnf_ireland

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Messages
1,367
The cummunication /flyer did not say it was for new customers it said all fixed rates will roll onto tracker, end of story.
I think if someone made the changes to their mortgage account via a broker (ie broker contacted the bank on their behalf), they may have some claim here. But if the person made the changes directly with the bank, I would be guessing it would be difficult to say they have seen the flyer and therefore it influenced them.
I am not sure how many people contact brokers to make changes to their mortgage, and now many do it themselves?
 

peemac

Frequent Poster
Messages
647
Surely they'd have sent such communication directly to the customer?

The communication states its for "loan amounts" over/under 150k. That would suggest to most people that its new loans .

Personally I think this is an extremely weak argument and I can't see the central bank accepting it.

Also the second part is a "new tracker product" and is a specific 80% ltv and over 500k.

I just think this is not an argument that will work. The first question any legal person will ask is what I say above - If this was aimed at customers that already had a mortgage, would it not have been sent directly to them and not the brokers?
 

Johnc6

Registered User
Messages
36
You forget 2005- 2009 very few people had email then KBC had no regional offices communication is not the same as now
 
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gnf_ireland

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Messages
1,367
Surely they'd have sent such communication directly to the customer?
Why would they have sent the flyers directly to customers? Who are the customers in this case? Every person in Ireland who had not yet signed up to a KBC mortgage? Those who signed up it is irrelevent
Those who were already KBC mortgages and were fixing at the time should have received a document around what they would roll over onto. If they asked about trackers and were told they would roll back onto one, then this is another matter. If they never asked, I dont see how the bank was expected to know their desire to roll back to one.

The communication states its for "loan amounts" over/under 150k. That would suggest to most people that its new loans .
I am sure there are lots of people with KBC mortgages >150k even now never mind then. Its easy to envisage an existing KBC customer with a mortgage of that size in the boom times

Personally I think this is an extremely weak argument and I can't see the central bank accepting it.
I agree with this statement - unless of course the change was made by a broker rather than directly with the bank.
We have to keep in mind that at the time interest rates were rising, and so too were trackers. Lots of people can off trackers of their own accord to stabilise their repayments

I just think this is not an argument that will work. The first question any legal person will ask is what I say above - If this was aimed at customers that already had a mortgage, would it not have been sent directly to them and not the brokers?
Correct - if KBC wanted to encourage existing customers onto a product, they would contact them directly rather than via a broker. A broker is designed to obtain new business - either new mortgages or switching. The flyer was sent to brokers only


You forget 2005- 2009 very few people had email then KBC had no regional offices communication is not the same as now
The post man done a great job back then and delivered letters on nearly a daily basis.
I would disagree that very few had it - less than today I accept, but hardly very few. Most people under the age of 35 would have had an email then, and many older than it. My mother even had one back then !


Its amazing how contradictory some of the conversation flows are. On one hard you head the website said x in 2008, and another says very few had emails at the same time. We all tend to 'create' arguments to suit our own narrative (myself included). But the reality is - if KBC wanted to promote a product in 2005-09 to existing customers, there are better ways to do it rather than a flyer to brokers. They could ring each and every customer via a automated dialer, they could send them all a direct letter, they could include a leaflet with their mortgage statement or they could take out an advertisement in a few papers. Sending the communication to brokers is not one of them, unless they were willing to offer decent commission to brokers for this task...
 

bluestilton

Registered User
Messages
25
Apologies for my confusion on this matter. The CB framework for conducting the tracker mortgage examination dated 2015 states relevant period as: " the period of time from when the lender commenced offering Tracker Interest Rates to 31 December 2015" Why then are KBC allowed to only investigate from Nov 06 to Nov 08? What is the relevant period that other banks are using?
My application from 05 shows we applied for a tracker. Somewhere between broker and bank this was changed on application form to discounted variable. Unfortunately we did not cop this until recently. Have been crucified financially since. Complained to bank with no luck. I wonder would there have been others whose applications were changed also?
 

KBCTracker

Registered User
Messages
5
Every time the tracker rate increased we got a letter advising us of the new monthly direct debit change, as we should have. On the bottom of each of these letters was encouragement from KBC to talk to them about their attractive fixed rate options. They didn’t say that after the fixed rate that you wouldn’t be getting your tracker back, ever.
The consumer protection code introduced in August 2006 says “ A regulated entity must ensure that all information it provides to a consumer is clear and comprehensible and that the key terms are brought to the attention of the consumer. The method of presentation must not disguise diminish or obscure important information”.
 
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