KBC KBC giving me back my tracker!

peemac

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648
@raglan Great to see the long time posters here finally get what we knew we were entitled to.

Compensation certainly seems to be random.

Mine works out at 20.7% of the excess interest charge or a higher 27.7% of the overpayment amount and higher than I expected .

Personally I don't have any reason to appeal as I got interest free assistance from a family member, but anyone that had to use credit cards or other high interest facilities to keep up their payments should definitely calculate the costs and have this paid in addition to the compensation payment provided.

There is one hidden "advantage" of this debacle. - We're all far far more financially aware than we were 8/9 years ago .
 
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Rakitom

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93
Hi

Just trying to calculate the redress and TVM.

Could someone help me on this.

Do you calculate based on total excess interest?
Or
Overpayment refund?

Thanks for your help.
 

Mauritius

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129
That's fantastic @peemac. The 5% time value is a good result. Mine was 1%. Are you going to challenge the compensation or are you accepting the terms?
 

peemac

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T
That's fantastic @peemac. The 5% time value is a good result. Mine was 1%. Are you going to challenge the compensation or are you accepting the terms?
Time value was 1% above ecb as they stated - with over 9 years of overpayment, it came to approx 5% of the overpayment.

I would not see where I would have cause to appeal and I'm happy that once they accepted they were wrong, they have been reasonably quick to finalise it and pay back the overpayment with reasonable compensation .

I'm lucky that I was able to scrape by without needing to take additional loans - just cut out all unnecessary expenditure .

Sort of nice to be able to go out to dinner again and book a holiday without watching the pennies.
 

Rakitom

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93
Hi Peemac

How are you calculating the your percentages.

Is it on total excess interest?

I’m not really understanding at what point to start.
 

Rakitom

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93
Hi All

Just an update

My TVM is 2.54% of total
My compensation is 10.25%

This seems low.

I will be moving to the next step. Requested an appeals form from tracker team.
 

Mauritius

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129
My compensation was 20% of overpayment over nine years. Time value was 1% of the overpayment. Considering the harassment I endured for many years- bombarded by offensive phone calls and letters; the denials, refusal to admit they were wrong; making me feel like I was stupid; the stresses of having to go to the Ombudsman; of having to move to a different country to try to get away from it. Enduring the stress and costs of having to rent out my home to give Kbc the extortionate interest they were demanding; emails from Kbc stating that I should be getting a higher rent for them; eight years of immense debilitating stress when I could have been building my career; years I will never get back. And then they say “sorry we made an error.”
The compensation they have sent me is about 10% of the emotional, mental & actual financial damage they have done to me. And they think that’s it, they’re done. Walking away and probably breathing a sigh of relief that people are happy just to have it over with.
 

peemac

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648
That's fantastic @peemac. The 5% time value is a good result. Mine was 1%. Are you going to challenge the compensation or are you accepting the terms?
I double checked and the figure is 3.65% of the total. The booklet explains how its calculated - 1% above ECB. As my redress goes from Nov 2008 the ecb rate ranged from 0% to 2%, so my TVM rate ranged from 3% (couple of months n late 2008/early 2009) to 1% (from 2014 onwards)


Hi All

Just an update

My TVM is 2.54% of total
My compensation is 10.25%

This seems low.

I will be moving to the next step. Requested an appeals form from tracker team.
As above, the booklet will give explanation to most figures especially the TVM.

Compensation is probably affected by several factors - how long you were affected for (9 years 4 months since my fixed rate ended), your tracker rate (0.95% in my case) and possibly other factors - I took FSO case.

To work the % - simply divide the compensation amount by the "total excess interest charged"

I would guess its a formula worked out with the CB and I'd guess just like any compensation, you'd have to show where a loss was incurred related to the overcharge.
 

Rakitom

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93
Hi Peemac

Thank you for your reply.

I went through the paperwork last night I think I’m right in calculating from the total figure.

That is overpayment and interest overpayment.

I’m not an expert in tort law, however in a case of tort.

The defendant is required to set right the issues of the plaintiff.

In the case of KBC, they have decided that in my case 2.54% is adequate for not having access to my funds?

And 10.25% compensation for the stress and disruption to me and my family over slightly more than a 7 year period.

Has anyone reading this post any understanding of how the banks have decided on compensation levels.

I think KBC have reacted quickly to those it deemed affected once it was confirmed they had made a mistake.

But I also think the bank is offering very low levels of compinsation for both TVM, and redress.

How is emotional stress calculated, how is healt stress calculated, how is opportunity loss calculated, how is family pressure calculated, how is the PTSD post traumatic stress disorder calculated, (e.g) when you see the post man, when your phone rings, having to defend your position and deal with the humiliation of being a failure in the eyes of your peers. Damaged credit rating.

Keeping the old banger on the road because you could bet get credit to upgrade, higher running costs, higher maintenance costs.

Full time stress fear that the interest rates might rise and that’s it your sunk.

I could go on and on and I’m sure there are much worse hart wrenching stories to contend with.

I will and recommend all to request an appeals form from the bank, as a next step.

I pleased I’m on a tracker and have some cash to play with. But the fact of the matter these guys have been influencing how you lived your day to day lives in some cases for a decade.

That’s a lot of energy, a lot of anger, how after so many customers told KBC it was frauding it’s customers it decided it had made a mistake for a full decade.

Full and deliberate BS.

That’s my bank holiday rant.

Thanks Peemac for reply
 

peemac

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648
Certainly on the TVM they will be found correct as its in excess of most deposit rates and is not subject to dirt. You can't use the "if I invested in bitcoin argument - they could counteract it and say "if you invested in Sears" or worst still Toys r Us! :) (now known as Toys WERE us)

I think they've made an error on compensation and should have set it at min 15%
 

unfortunate

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128
Here is my reply from CB on lenders prevailing rate query:

In relation to prevailing rate issues in general, the Tracker Examination has identified that wording of customers’ mortgage contracts i.e. the terms and conditions attached to their mortgages, vary widely both within and between lenders. Given the variance in the contractual terms identified, not all cases may be treated the same for the purposes of the Examination in respect of determining affected customers for the purposes of redress and compensation.

Yours sincerely.

CB seem to be leaving it to banks individual interpretation.
 

Rakitom

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93
Here is my reply from CB on lenders prevailing rate query:

In relation to prevailing rate issues in general, the Tracker Examination has identified that wording of customers’ mortgage contracts i.e. the terms and conditions attached to their mortgages, vary widely both within and between lenders. Given the variance in the contractual terms identified, not all cases may be treated the same for the purposes of the Examination in respect of determining affected customers for the purposes of redress and compensation.

Yours sincerely.

CB seem to be leaving it to banks individual interpretation.
Interesting response from CB,

It would seem they are assisting the major bank in limiting liability. From a legal imperative.

However the statement is very open and does not shut the door on civil action. However the law in this country does not allow for a class action, a class action would certainly clarify the wording and it’s orignal intent.,

What needs to be proved, would any reasonable thinking person have read and interperated the Prevailing rate statement as you and many others.

It’s a double edged sword, on one side you read it as tracker rate.
On the other side the bank reads it as a flexible term that has no fixed point in time in some, cases and a fixed point in time in others.

However the fact they have had to admit to making a mistake with the cohort means there interpretation of there own statements will always weigh in there favour.

If the Broker flyer had not been highlighted as significant there would be no cohort. The bank would have continued to charge at SVR rate 4.5%

What is needed is a test case, run against the bank and the ombudsman office.

I would urge you to research the MILLER V Danske bank. The ruling on this was a disgrace and had government interference written all over it. “This is supposition not a fact and a personal opinion”

In my opinion the the appeals court was wrong, and again any reasonable person taking a loan would expect interest rates to move up and down in line with the central bank of Europe. As they set rates for the whole of Europe.

1,) Current Market Conditions, Ambigious to be sure. Again banks win this arguement.
APPEALS COURT RULLED THAT, the above statement ment “Market Conditions in general”
2,) prevailing interest Rate, this statement is not ambiguous it clear English and Dictonary interpretation is clear.

The point here is, the ombudsman would be speaking out of both sides of his mouth if he interpreted the above statement as anything other than what it says in plain English.

Those in limbo should pool some funds and test this in a court.

If there are any solicitors or budding law students among you or your children.

It is well worth going after.

Reference text is from the IRISHTIMES.com I hope this is not copyright, if so apologies for re quoting.

Last September, the High Court ordered the Ombusdman to reconsider the complaint by Kenneth and Donna Millar, Strand Road, Portmarnock, Co Dublin.

The Millars have a home mortgage and six other buy-to-let investor mortgages on variable rates with Danske Bank.

The complained about Danske’s decision to hike its variable interest mortgage rates to more than four per cent when the European Central Bank(ECB) rates were almost zero.

The Ombusdman rejected the complaint and when then High Court judge Gerard Hogan ruled the decision should be reconsidered, it lodged an appeal, as did the bank.

A three-judge Court of Appeal on Wednesday ruled Mr Justice Hogan had erred in his decision and restored the Ombusdman’s finding.

In one of two separate judgements, Mr Justice Peter Kelly said he disagreed with the High Court’s conclusion that a clause in the loan agreement referring to “market conditions” meant “market conditions generally”.

“I do not share that view nor do I agree the clause in question is ambiguous”, he said.

The Ombusdman was correct in rejecting a “contrived construction” which the Millars sought to place on that clause, he said. The Ombusdman was also correct in finding the wording was clear, he said.

In her separate judgment, Ms Justice Mary Finlay Geoghegan said the case should not be remitted back to the High Court because it had not been established the Ombusdman was in serious error.

The Millars had not established the Ombusdman was in error in finding the bank was not in breach of the terms and conditions of the loan agreement in making increases in 2011 and in rejecting their complaint as unsubstantiated, she said.
 

Rakitom

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93
The Ombusdman was correct in rejecting a “contrived construction” which the Millars sought to place on that clause, he said. The Ombusdman was also correct in

Are you/we all guilty of a “contrived construction” by inerperating “returned to prevailing Rate”

This is a powerful price of case law, and would be interpreted as good law in any arguement on the statement.

The courts are bound to make a determination in favour of the prevailing interest rate statement.

If not then tge appeals court ruling is an ass.
 

unfortunate

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128
Some post that. However all that annoys me is the fact that this is all so non transparent and just' go way little man' attitude. Be up front and tell some truths. They refuse to answer my questions or provide me with a credible explanation of wording. They won't send a brochure that gives terms or rates on offer in 2005. That would solve everything. Then also they sent me a document pertaining to be from august 2007 that was actually created on word on 25 Jan this year. Why should I trust or take their answers when this goes on??
 

unfortunate

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128
But also. Yes some of it is hindsight but should I have been offered or put back on tracker? Did the bank see writing on the wall and just do one on us? Maybe I'm a bit thick! But it's like if you were short changed 50 euro at a till somewhere and you, for whatever reason did not check there and then........would you in hindsight leave it be or go back and fight your corner.?? If you get your tyres fitted do you check the nuts before you drive off or do you assume the professionals will look after you and do what you'd expect.?? Like I said its the suspicion that they did the dirty tricks to grab in cash from consumers. And remember hindsight is 20/20 vision. We all do it.
 

Darn40

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70
No Kbc seem to be sticking to their guns on this one.
Not sure what Padraic kissane
Or the central bank view is doo ??
 

Jazzer1

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Padraic kissane and his team is meeting with the Central Bank on Friday in relation to the cases he believes should be back on a tracker with KBC.
 
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