Is it it time for "children" who commit adult crimes to be treated as criminals?

What happened on the M9 should not have happened. Five people died caused by their own recklessness is tragic, but let’s not forget the fact they were 100% responsible for their own actions. Some were from the Travelling Community, this doesn’t hold water anywhere. There is an innate difference between right and wrong learned by most by the age of seven no matter what part of the community they come from.

Four other responsible people are seriously injured by the reckless actions of the Five. Those four never asked to be involved in any accident. They now are faced with recovering mentally and physically and financially as are their respective friends and family.

Then there’s the first responders who had to deal with all of the people involved. I have to ask “When is all such criminal behaviour going to stop?” Blaming the education system is wrong. Blaming their upbringing is wrong. The bottom line is the Five were behaving as criminals and their actions should be treated as criminal. There are no excuses.
 
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Leper said:
Nowhere on that statement is condemnation of the people who committed the alleged crimes which led to the carnage.
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So?? The question asked was there any words of sympathy or concern provided from Pavee. The answer is yes.

If its words of condemnation you are looking for you might revert to the comments of An Taoiseach Micheál Martin, Minister of Justice Jim O'Callaghan, and Garda Commissioner Justin Kelly.
 
@Sister Sara, I’m not talking about An Taoiseach, Minister of Justice, Garda Commissioner - I’m talking about the statement from Pavee Point which has no reference to the behaviour of the criminal behaviour involved. Sympathy at this stage (to me at least) sounds shallow and a deflection of reality.

. . . and the newspaper coverage . . . the criminal behaviour of the occupants of the offending car was never going to be not reported. They made the news, complaining of the news reports and the aftermath of the tragedy is futile.
 
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The Sindo is at it. The Editorial focuses on the social media responsibility in this. Sure, getting their likes on TikTok is part of the appeal but the Sindo goes on to blame "addictive algorithms" for this, TikTok is actually part to blame. In other pieces algorithms get a bashing at least twice more. Baloney.

And then the Editorial goes on to criticise TikTok for not appearing before an Oireachtas committee. What? To let our TDs satisfy their cravings for "likes".

Please give me a "like"
 
@Leper I'm not sure where you are tryin to go with this? Words of condemnation have issued from the highest offices in the land that represent all of us in this country. Do we all we need to issue statements of condemnation? Have you issued a statement of condemnation? If not, why not?

The only observations I made about media coverage was the extent to which TikTok is being featured relative to all other issues of parenting, schooling, social services, etc.
The other observation was in response to another poster that suggested that the funerals should have been kept low profile - I thought that would be difficult considering the national coverage of the affair.

In contrast to the similarly devastating crash in Middlesborough yesterday, Cleveland Police Chief Constable Victoria Fuller said "Whilst this investigation is ongoing, and out of respect for all those who have lost loved ones, I would strongly urge people to avoid speculation and respect the privacy of the families."
 
Sister Sara said:
Do we all we need to issue statements of condemnation? Have you issued a statement of condemnation? If not, why not?
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If a publicly funded organisation feels the need to issue a public statement then it should include a condemnation. That is the difference.
 
JoeRoberts said:
If a publicly funded organisation feels the need to issue a public statement then it should include a condemnation.
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Who made that rule up?

Tusla issued a statement confirming one of the teenagers was in its care. It didn't offer a condemnation. Probably because its a nonsense to suggest it should.
 
I’ve had it and I’m out of this conversation. We are not going to get Pavee Point to condemn the crime as they should if they were any good. @Sister Sara keeps avoiding the issue; no point in proceeding with the matter. Over and out!
 
Sarah Ryan said:
There are no words.
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Yes there are; "criminal enterprise", they're the words you're missing. Both vehicles which drove the wrong way down motorways in Ireland and in England had earlier been pursued by local law enforcement investigating criminal matters. Both pursuits were called off before the collisions. See reports in today's Sunday Times pp 1 & 2 and pp 6 & 7, amongst others.

Bill Clear, an Independent Ireland Councillor in Kildare quoted on page 7 in the Sunday Times was wise in his observation that Pavee Point should "sit the one out".
Sister Sara said:
In contrast to the similarly devastating crash in Middlesborough yesterday, Cleveland Police Chief Constable Victoria Fuller said "Whilst this investigation is ongoing, and out of respect for all those who have lost loved ones, I would strongly urge people to avoid speculation and respect the privacy of the families."
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But some of the families concerned here are out and out attention seeking, with their vulgarly ostentatious funeral displays, and representative organisations and individuals issuing poorly thought out and poorly worded statements and interviews with the press, apparently on their behalf, see today's Sunday Times pp 6 & 7, amongst others. It would seem their own children and an innocent family are also victims of this over-the-top behaviour. It isn't clear that the families Cleveland Police Chief Constable Victoria Fuller are of a similar outlook.
 
@Leper I'm not avoiding anything.

The question of whether words of sympathy were offered by Pavee Point was asked, I simply posted a statement to show that a statement expressing sympathy was made.

You brought the whole 'condemnation' issue into it. Pavee Point is nothing more than an advocacy group for Travellers Rights and Welfare. The idea that they should condemn what happened is as absurd as expecting Tusla to condemn, or the Irish Polish Society to condemn because one of the teenagers is of a Polish background.

None of these groups are law-makers, or enforcers, nor are they elected representatives within their respective communities and it is not even clear, with the exception of Tusla, if any of these teenagers or their families have any direct association with Pavee Point or the Irish Polish Society.

So I'll leave it there as far as the condemnation issue goes.
 
JoeRoberts said:
So if 5 lads are arrested tonight for driving the wrong way on a motorway could you tell us your proposed plan to deal with them if found guilty.
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I'd give them long prison sentences. I would do so in the knowledge that it would be a suitable punishment but that it would not act as a deterrent to others to the extent that it would reduce the incidents of similar crime.
 
Sister Sara said:
These are the key points in my opinion. Before Coimisiún na Mean got involved I was wondering what the Commissioners for Parenting, Schooling, Social Services, Juvenile Delinquency etc had to say?
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Would you want to live in a country where the State intruded into the lives of citizens to the extent that there were commissions on schooling and in particular parenting?
We already have mandatory reporting rules for teachers, doctors and phycologists where they cannot use their discretion and must involve TUSLA if a child tells them things in confidence which may have broader child welfare issues. Can you imagine the level of over reach that we'd end up with?
 
Leper said:
@Purple raised and interesting loaded question earlier “Are we interested in punishment . . .”
You bet your bottom dollar this Ol’ Leper is and the more punishment meted out cleaning up neglected graveyards the better.
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That is already done through Community Service orders.

Leper said:
And I’d remove televisions, internet from their cells, I’d allow them have mobile phones use for ten minutes per day and no lights after 9.00pm.
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There should never be mobile phones in prisons. The focus should be on rehabilitating and punishing the inmate.

Leper said:
Our prisons should be prisons, not holiday camps.
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I agree, but it doesn't serve society if we brutalise people.

The question is what problem we are trying to solve.
In my opinion it's a) making society safer by rehabilitating the offender, b) providing a sense of justice for the injured party and c) punishing the criminal.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Let's start from a position I hope we can all agree upon. If incarceration was abolished and not replaced with some equivalent punishment then all crimes currently the subject of incarceration would increase from their current levels.
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So long as we also accept that doubling incarceration rates will not come close to halving crime rates.
 
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