Is it it time for "children" who commit adult crimes to be treated as criminals?

Duke of Marmalade said:
This incident had absolutely nothing to do with road safety.
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Howth Head said:
(Yes, one of those families.)
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Indeed 100% @Duke of Marmalade , pure out and out criminal behaviour and according to reports in The Irish Times online there were reports and recordings of what looks like them trying to break into cars and houses around the Athy and Carlow areas before the first incident of them driving down the M9 the wrong way that night. Gardai had set up a stinger operation at one exit off the M9 to disable the car they eventually used as a lethal weapon against an innocent family, but the criminals concerned used a different exit and avoided being intercepted and having their vehicle disabled.

@Howth Head do you mean those families that run illegal rolling road blocks on main roads inconveniencing and endangering legal road users to run their sulky races? Sulky racing from BBC

Again behaviour that shows no regard for anyone else because its part of their culture perhaps?
 
There is/was an online teenage game in Cork where someone “disappeared” for a few days even weeks causing much work for gardaì etc. The winner was the youth who remained disappeared longest. It was called Hide-and-Seek. The M9 tragedy is a progression on that. We can talk about causes of the “deprived” forever. A guy carrying out a court sentence of Community Service once “worked” in a place of my employ. He wouldn’t work and acted the clown all day through his entire community service. Earlier I said I’d have chain gangs of such thugs formed for manual Labour cleaning out graveyards (for a start). The quicker this is done, the sooner the problem will be solved.
 
It's truly depressing and infuriating - and the fact that little will be done in the way of any effective deterrent or enforcement is the worst part of it .

I don't blame the Gardai - they're being asked to fight battles on a whole series of new, unfamiliar fronts these days, and they're clearly not resourced or equipped to do so. (Although I do carry a slight grudge over the memory of the zero-tolerance zeal with which they enforced Covid regulations, mainly against easy targets.)

I watched this RTE Prime Time segment again last night from a year ago following the mowing down of a man in Baldoyle by the same cohort of juvenile criminals. You can see the frustration in the Gardai who, when they apprehend and charge these thugs, they see them back on the streets within hours giving them the fingers:

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Duke of Marmalade said:
almost a slight blame on Brexit on that clip.
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Has Tommy Robinson been implicated yet? He was behind the hauliers dispute apparently.

Sarah Ryan said:
Tusla reveals it had contact with three boys from M9 crash
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Just watching Prime Time a few minutes ago I nearly threw my glass of Moretti at my prized Samsung 65" in frustration.

Expect an overload of, "we-have-to-be-seen-to-be-doing-something-ism" over the next few weeks. Rinse and repeat.
 
Howth Head said:
Has Tommy Robinson been implicated yet? He was behind the hauliers dispute apparently.
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When I started reading the comment I thought @mathepac was referring to the Hauliers when he said;
mathepac said:
do you mean those families that run illegal rolling road blocks on main roads inconveniencing and endangering legal road users
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Howth Head said:
It's truly depressing and infuriating - and the fact that little will be done in the way of any effective deterrent or enforcement is the worst part of it .
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It is indeed but what specific effective deterrent would you like to see put in place? Remember that you want it/them to be effective. I'm with you on that but I struggle to think of anything that would actually be effective.

The international evidence is overwhelming that longer prison sentences do not deter crime but an increased likelihood of detection does. Therefore increased detection is the answer from a law and order perspective. How the heck do we do that? The Gardai have 2 helicopters. We aren't going to ever have enough to create a real deterrent. The have 21 Drones on trial. That's probably a more realistic operational option. How do we get them into the loop for these sorts of operations and how long will it take? Do we want them for surveillance or to actually engage with criminals?

I've no time for the hand-wringers who think that this is all society's fault and that the 5 kids were somehow victims too. I've no sympathy for the suggestion that they were failed by the State. I don't want to live in a country where the State plays such an intrusive and controlling role in the lives of its citizens.
I also have no time for the Victorian style law and order crowd who think, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, that these sorts of crimes can be prevented or deterred by draconian policing and sentencing.

We live in a very free country where unsolicited intrusions by the State into our lives are minimal. I'd like to keep it that way.
 
Purple said:
also have no time for the Victorian style law and order crowd who think, despite all of the evidence to the contrary, that these sorts of crimes can be prevented
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Well the longer they are in prison the longer the public is safe. That is indisputable. And keeping the public safe takes priority over everything else.
 
JoeRoberts said:
Well the longer they are in prison the longer the public is safe. That is indisputable. And keeping the public safe takes priority over everything else.
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Okay, so you don't accept the internationally accepted data.

The people who get caught and sent to prison are not the problem. It is the people who have not committed the crime yet or who have not been caught for previous crimes. Longer sentences do not act as a deterrent for those people.

It is human nature to underestimate risk. The more profound the potential outcome the more we underestimate our chances of suffering that outcome. That's why we smoke; one in two long term smokers will die from it. We all know that but lots of people still smoke because "I won't be one of them". Watch The Big Short, the same propensity is explained in it.
 
JoeRoberts said:
They become the problem when they re-offend. If they were in prison longer they can do less re-offending. Simple.
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So you are interested in punishment rather than reducing the chanced of crimes occurring. If that is the case then your point stands. I was talking about reducing crime and making society safer. If that is the aim them longer sentences serve no purpose.
 
Purple said:
So you are interested in punishment rather than reducing the chanced of crimes occurring. If that is the case then your point stands. I was talking about reducing crime and making society safe
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I'm interested in keeping harmful people out of the way of society for as long as possible. That increases safety for society.
 
JoeRoberts said:
If a man is in prison for 10 years he can do no harm for 10 years. If he is in prison for 1 year he has 9 extra years to do harm.
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Okay, so you don't accept the internationally accepted data.
I've explained above why your hypothesis doesn't reduce crime.
 
Measuring exact youth crime rates globally can be tricky because legal definitions of "youth" (often ranging from ages 10 to 21) and methods of reporting vary widely. However, according to comparative criminal justice data, UNICEF reports, and global reoffending metrics, the following countries consistently maintain the lowest youth crime rates and lowest rates of youth recidivism (reoffending):

1. Japan​

  • Why it's low: Japan routinely records exceptionally low juvenile crime rates.
  • Key Factors: A strong cultural emphasis on social harmony, strict community-oriented policing (like local koban police boxes), and active involvement from families and schools in early intervention.

2. Norway​

  • Why it's low: Norway has one of the world's lowest youth reoffending rates—roughly 90% of young offenders do not commit another crime. In fact, it is common for fewer than 10 juveniles to be in detention in the entire country at any given time.
  • Key Factors: The minimum age of criminal responsibility is 15. The system prioritizes rehabilitation, restorative justice, intensive social work, and vocational education over incarceration.

3. Finland​

  • Why it's low: Finland drastically reduced its youth incarceration and delinquency rates over recent decades.
  • Key Factors: Focus on restorative justice and early social intervention. Instead of courts or detention, young offenders are typically routed to specialized child social services, counseling, and school-based support programs.

4. Singapore​

  • Why it's low: Singapore maintains extremely low youth offending numbers, especially for violent crimes.
  • Key Factors: Strict law enforcement combined with early intervention programs, youth guidance orders, and structured family support networks aimed at diverting young people away from the formal criminal justice system.

5. Netherlands​

  • Why it's low: The Netherlands has seen a steady, multi-decade decline in both general youth crime and juvenile detention.
  • Key Factors: Heavy reliance on the HALT program—an early intervention framework that allows young offenders to make amends through community service, education, or restitution to victims without acquiring a formal criminal record.

6. Iceland & Liechtenstein​

  • Why they're low: These small nations feature almost negligible youth crime metrics.
  • Key Factors: Iceland famously curbed youth delinquency (including substance abuse and vandalism) through its "Planet Youth" model, which invested heavily in organized extracurricular activities, sports, parental agreements, and youth curfews.

What These Low-Crime Countries Have in Common​

  • Restorative over Punitive Justice: They treat youth offenses as social or educational issues rather than purely legal ones, using detention only as an absolute last resort.
  • High Social Welfare: Wealthier nations with strong safety nets, quality education, and low poverty rates naturally experience lower youth delinquency.
  • Diversion Programs: Interventions keep minor offenses out of formal court systems, preventing the "labeling effect" that often leads young people into repeat criminality.
 
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