Is it it time for "children" who commit adult crimes to be treated as criminals?

[Purple]

If we apply the same concept to the whole population it still works.

No, the cohort of potential miscreants is large enough that locking up perpetrators for longer has no statistically significant impact on crime rates and longer sentences don't act as a deterrent.

 

[Purple]

This reminds me of the truism that for every complex problem there is a simple solution... that doesn't work.

 

[Leper]

@Purple raised and interesting loaded question earlier “Are we interested in punishment . . .”
You bet your bottom dollar this Ol’ Leper is and the more punishment meted out cleaning up neglected graveyards the better. And I’d remove televisions, internet from their cells, I’d allow them have mobile phones use for ten minutes per day and no lights after 9.00pm. Our prisons should be prisons, not holiday camps.

 

[mathepac]

I’d allow them have mobile phones use for ten minutes per day

No mobiles, land-lines only as they can't access social media outlets.

 

[JoeRoberts]

This reminds me of the truism that for every complex problem there is a simple solution... that doesn't work.

So if 5 lads are arrested tonight for driving the wrong way on a motorway could you tell us your proposed plan to deal with them if found guilty.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Pavee are claiming that all the fuss is because 3 of the 5 were from the Travelling community. I didn't even know that until today.

 

[Leo]

So if 5 lads are arrested tonight for driving the wrong way on a motorway could you tell us your proposed plan to deal with them if found guilty.

I don't think anyone here has much authority to do anything there.

It's been proven time and time again that increased sentencing just leads to increased crime rates overall. For example US incarceration rates are ~6 times ours, but their crime rates are also a multiple of our per capita.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

increased sentencing just leads to increased crime rates

Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

 

[Leo]

Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

Internationally, increasing prison populations has shown little or no impact on crime rates.

 

[JoeRoberts]

Internationally, increasing prison populations has shown little or no impact on crime rates

Doesn't really prove anything, just more crimes out there and easier to get away with it.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Internationally, increasing prison populations has shown little or no impact on crime rates.

Research has shown that the aging population, increased wages, increased employment, increased graduation rates, increased consumer confidence, increased law enforcement personnel, and changes in policing strategies were associated with lower crime rates

Well yeah! I presume the statistics show a very high (negative) correlation between crime and socio-economic status.
Some of the arguments seem almost tautological like "increasing incarceration rates has not reduced violent crime rates because the increase has been targeted at non violent crimes like drugs".
Let's start from a position I hope we can all agree upon. If incarceration was abolished and not replaced with some equivalent punishment then all crimes currently the subject of incarceration would increase from their current levels.
So are we complacent enough to believe we have the correct balance for this particular type of behaviour?

 

[Sister Sara]

roughly 90% of young offenders do not commit another crime.

it is common for fewer than 10 juveniles to be in detention in the entire country at any given time.

The minimum age of criminal responsibility is 15

Not disparaging an otherwise good post but I suspect Norway's amazing stats may have something to do with not counting 15yrs -17yrs + as juveniles?

young offenders are typically routed to specialized child social services, counseling, and school-based support programs.

They treat youth offenses as social or educational issues

These are the key points in my opinion. Before Coimisiún na Mean got involved I was wondering what the Commissioners for Parenting, Schooling, Social Services, Juvenile Delinquency etc had to say?

I also don't attribute blame for the deaths and injuries on all 5, rather the driver. It was the driver that was in control of the car, it was the driver that turned it down the wrong way. The other four may certainly be considered accomplices to the crimes, but there is also the prospect of - maybe not in this particular case - peer pressure being a significant factor.

"Falling in with the wrong crowd" is not just a slogan, it is a fact that some young impressionable teenagers, particularly boys, are easily gulled into doing stupid things. I did a couple of stupid things when I was 15/16 (nothing on this level) that if the outcome had been different may have sent my life in a completely different trajectory, and not in a positive way.

Early detection of disruptive and anti-social behaviour is key. Intervention needs to go beyond the child and family and into the community that often, unwittingly, fosters the behaviour by accepting it.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

also don't attribute blame for the deaths and injuries on all 5, rather the driver.

Ah! Careless driving. Where are the RSA?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I did a couple of stupid things when I was 15/16 (

Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch. The psychiatrist was being interviewed about a topical dysfunction which had people acting like mice. He asked “can anybody honestly say they have not burned down a tall public building at some stage?”
I agree that there is an element of labelling arbitrage in Norway’s stats.

 

[Sister Sara]

Ah! Careless driving. Where are the RSA?

More wreckless driving, endangerment to public safety and life.

I suppose the point is that if we treat children that commit crimes as adults then there has to be an adult way to treat them. As revulsed as we all are with what happened, and the reactions are understandable, some of the reactions are clearly knee-jerk. The high media attention on TikTok relative to the other issues of parenting, socio-economic background, education, policing, resources etc being an example.

The cynic in me almost wonders if traditional media outlets who are having are competing with these new forms of social media see the high profiling of TikTok as an opportunity to stick the knife into their competitors in the hope that their presence is curtailed by government and more people revert back to the traditional forms of media?

 

[Sarah Ryan]

After watching some of the funeral footage today, it's safe to say they look after them better when they are dead rather than alive.

 

[Conan]

The funeral footage was disgraceful. That young thug was given a celebrity send-off. Most "normal" families would have wanted to keep a low profile, but that garish display demonstrates the lack of any morality from this family. And the Church should have refused to allow the posters etc to be erected on its grounds idolising this criminal. It was two'- fingers to the lawful population and the 4 people in the other car.
At least the family of the Limerick guy had the sense to opt for alow key funeral.

 

[Sister Sara]

I'd imagine it is harder to keep low-profile when there is national media coverage and its audience are tuning in to make judgements on funeral cortege and procession.

I've seen criticism of the gold-coloured coffin. Does the colour of the coffin matter? Does any of that matter and have anything to do the core issues at hand? Does it serve any purpose other than to drive further division between communities when coming together is what is needed?

 

[mathepac]

The funeral footage was disgraceful.

I'm unsure why anyone would want to watch those disgusting, flashy, selfish, indulgent displays. A quick scan of the front pages in the shop this morning indicated that most of the red-top rags, all bar one I think, seem to have steered well clear of them in the headlines at least, and the front page reviews on Morning Ireland this a.m seemed to confirm this, thankfully.

Pavee are claiming that all the fuss is because 3 of the 5 were from the Travelling community.

My original information from someone close to the scene of the original events said 4, but I'll be guided by the ultimate experts in these matters. Had the same Pavee any words of sympathy or concern for a beautiful law-abiding family who had their lives sundered by the actions of a gang of thugs, some of them known, repeat, law-breakers? I don't see them quoted or repeated anywhere if they did. I wonder did it occur to the Pavee spokes-person that all the fuss is about the damages and injuries caused to an innocent family by a group of lawless hooligans? If Pavee want to act as the mouth-piece for the latter group, then shame on all their houses.

I did see some of the coverage of the community events organised in support of the 4 young family members still hopitalised after this appalling, wanton, thuggery. I'm glad to hear the voluntary fund-raising appeals on behalf of the family continue apace and I'm sure every cent raised will be put to good use, just as I'm sure it'll be needed and that neither the car that ran into them as it drove the wrong way on the M9, its driver, nor the ultimate owner, had insurance to cover their massive healthcare and other costs.

 

[Sister Sara]

Had the same Pavee any words of sympathy or concern for a beautiful law-abiding family who had their lives sundered by the actions of a gang of thugs, some of them known, repeat, law-breakers? I don't see them quoted or repeated anywhere if they did.

Pavee Point Statement

"Following the tragedy that took place on the M9 in Co Kildare on Sunday morning, Pavee Point wishes to extend our deepest sympathies to all those involved, to their families, their friends and the wider community.
We extend our prayers and thoughts to those who lost their lives and to those who are in hospital with very serious injuries from this senseless tragedy. Our thoughts are also with the first responders who bravely responded to the scene.
The devastation of Sunday, and other tragedies on Irish roads, urges us all to be more responsible.

We are very concerned about the lack of proactive responses from social media platforms in monitoring harmful content which, in this instance, only glorifies harmful behaviour.
We are equally concerned about social media commentary focusing on ethnicity which only serves to stoke vile anti-Traveller racism."