Will you go for a pint when restrictions are lifted?

You introduced that particular statistic which I made an "educated guess" on but the central thrust of my argument is that bond markets are trying to move up interest rates especially on troubled country bonds like Italy and one of the reasons is the risk of higher inflation than previously calculated.
Sorry Joe, let me step back through the sequence of events.
It was you that initially made the claim that the bond markets were pushing up interest rates because they no longer believe in the "no inflation" narrative. Here's your exact quote:
That's why the bond markets are trying to push up interest rates they no longer believe the "no inflation" narrative and the central banks have to come in to suppress them again .
It was after this that I said anything about bonds or inflation.

The ECB had to step back into the markets in March to buy government bonds especially in countries like Italy to prevent interest rates rising, here is an actual widely available source like bloomberg
That's absolutely fantastic Joe. But did you realise the word 'inflation' isn't mentioned once? When you look at the widening spread between German and Italian bonds it tells us nothing about inflation, but it more to do with a perceived credit risk (if you look, the spread was at a low point immediately after the new Italian government was formed back in February).

not a spurious financial sector site that was blocked by my internet security
Spurious??? Do you know the meaning of the word?
It's the official website of the French debt management agency. The ".gouv.fr" extension means it's an official French Government website.

Since you seem to be having trouble accessing the site, here are the inferred inflation predictions, using French 10 year OATis with a 2028 maturity for selected dates:

15/01/2020 1.00% (i.e. 'pre Covid')
10/4/202 0.36% (exactly 1 year ago: it's low point was actually on 23/3/2020 at 0.02% when it looks like we could be potentially entering recession territory)
26/2/2021 0.84%

In any case the bond markets don't know where inflation will be in 2028 it is an "educated guess" thats why it was interesting to find out from your statistic where they expected inflation to be last year in 2028.
Fully agreed. It's all just predictions, and reality could turn out very different.
However, I find your line of argument interesting. It was you who first said that the bond markets were pushing interest rates up because they expect inflation. Yet when you're provided with evidence of what the bond markets are actually predicting, suddenly the argument changes to "the bond markets are wrong".

Are you saying I am not allowed to give an opinion on whether I think they are correct. I know you hold what the bond markets might be saying with a holy reverance but they are not Gods and a lot of bond buying is driven by the central banks and financial institutions that are compelled to buy them no matter what the interest rate is.
To be clear, I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Do I hold the bond markets opinion with a Holy Reverence? No. However, I do give a considerable amount of weight to a market which is backed by hundreds of billions of Euro plus additional trillions of Euro of derivatives. There is an extensive derivatives market outside of the bond market where the bets are all going the same way. If you wanted to you could call the derivatives trading desk in Barclays on Monday and they would take the other side of an inflation bet for you. The inflation element has very little to do with the ECB being forced to buy bonds. I would expect that the market is pretty efficient at making predictions, based on the information available at that point in time.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but please forgive me if I don't give it the same weight.

What seems to be missing in the whole thought process is that the ECB actually WANTS a bit of inflation. So when they step in to keep borrowing costs low, it's not to stop inflation but to try trigger it. As you can see from the data above, the inflation expectation was at it's lowest point before the ECB stepped in with a bond buying programme - interest yields went down, and the inferred inflation prediction went up.



I'm happy to continue to discuss this further, but if you're going to argue with me by going down a "you said, I said" rabbit hole, please have the courtesy to be factual. And you might make it clearer in your posts what is opinion vs what you are stating as fact then I might refrain from correcting you where what you really intended as an 'educated guess'.

If at any point you think I've overstepped a line, there's a little 'Report' option at the bottom of all my posts so that you can report them for a moderators attention.
 
Spurious??? Do you know the meaning of the word?
It's the official website of the French debt management agency. The ".gouv.fr" extension means it's an official French Government website.

Since you seem to be having trouble accessing the site, here are the inferred inflation predictions, using French 10 year OATis with a 2028 maturity for selected dates:

15/01/2020 1.00% (i.e. 'pre Covid')
10/4/202 0.36% (exactly 1 year ago: it's low point was actually on 23/3/2020 at 0.02% when it looks like we could be potentially entering recession territory)
26/2/2021 0.84%
Thanks very much for that RedOnion I know you are highly knowledgeable in this area . You went to alot of trouble to post that and I acknowledge that.

The reason why I even discussed this topic of interest rates and inflation in a thread about when can we go for a drink again is that it is all dependent and actually dismissively so by people who think that this situation can continue indefinitely and that there is no great urgency in getting normal businesses back running. The government can continue to borrow the money on the bond markets and never have to think about interest rates rising again. Thats why I have been highly critical of nphet and the government for the cavalier approach to opening dates as if the cost of an extra week of closed businesses doesn't matter it can just be added to the national debt with no consequence
 
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Thats why I have been highly critical of nphet and the government for the cavalier approach to opening dates as if the cost of an extra week of closed businesses doesn't matter it can just be added to the national debt with no consequence
Bringing it back to the pint, and the impact on the economy.

I'm trying to be careful here, and only talking about the impact on a national economy scale. I realise there's a huge impact on individual business owners and I want to be clear I'm not being dismissive of that.

Do we know how much the pub trade adds to tax receipts? Is the economy really dependent on pubs? Specifically, have you looked at the impact on excise receipts?
 
Bringing it back to the pint, and the impact on the economy.

I'm trying to be careful here, and only talking about the impact on a national economy scale. I realise there's a huge impact on individual business owners and I want to be clear I'm not being dismissive of that.

Do we know how much the pub trade adds to tax receipts? Is the economy really dependent on pubs? Specifically, have you looked at the impact on excise receipts?
There's a pdf online by the drinks industry but it's from 2013 and says spending in 2012 was about €7bn including off-licence sales.
Average employees just over 6 per pub .
It's 51 pages long and goes into excise/tax etc but it's too early for that to be analysed

Of course there is a cost of drinking to health, society and so on but details of that seems to be a secret.
 
It's 51 pages long and goes into excise/tax etc but it's too early for that to be analysed
Yes, you'd need a pint before reading that!

But we have data in the impact, to public finances, of the closures last year.
Revenue publish alcohol excise receipts quarterly. Overall for 2020 it was down 3% on prior year (roughly 1.2bn receipts in 2020). There was a huge switch between beer & wine, reflecting people's choice re drinking at home. But there is the same excise income for the state for both on and off sales.

VAT receipts are obviously impacted because prices are lower.

Average employees just over 6 per pub .
Very few of them paying tax, as they mainly are part-time and their tax credits cover any tax due.

A lot of people are surprised when they learn that income tax receipts held up last year (only down 1% on 2019) despite the number of people who were out of work. It's a result of our progressive tax system.


People don't like hearing it, but opening pubs or shops a month earlier doesn't really change the 'income' line at a national finances level. It will reduce the expenditure on the social welfare supports. But pubs aren't the backbone of the national economy.
 
Yes, you'd need a pint before reading that!

But we have data in the impact, to public finances, of the closures last year.
Revenue publish alcohol excise receipts quarterly. Overall for 2020 it was down 3% on prior year (roughly 1.2bn receipts in 2020). There was a huge switch between beer & wine, reflecting people's choice re drinking at home. But there is the same excise income for the state for both on and off sales.

VAT receipts are obviously impacted because prices are lower.


Very few of them paying tax, as they mainly are part-time and their tax credits cover any tax due.

A lot of people are surprised when they learn that income tax receipts held up last year (only down 1% on 2019) despite the number of people who were out of work. It's a result of our progressive tax system.


People don't like hearing it, but opening pubs or shops a month earlier doesn't really change the 'income' line at a national finances level. It will reduce the expenditure on the social welfare supports. But pubs aren't the backbone of the national economy.
I know of a few " students" who were working part-time in various pubs in my locality that were getting more on PUP than they were getting from working.

As you say most of these wouldn't have high enough taxable income to pay tax .its going to be very interesting to see what Revenue will be saying once things get back to normal as taxable income will be considerably higher.

Yes it's not an "essential " part of our economy but without the pubs other pieces like tourism would suffer. I was in Doolin 2 years ago and there must have been 30 coaches outside O Connors and it would appear they were all in the pub despite the overflowing loos
 
You have to do more for the exchequer.

When drinking at home only top shelf whiskies and fine wines... no bargain basement buys.
It's another justification!

Joking aside, I'd love to see the impact on the craft beer industry, and if there's been an increase in employment. I'm not alone in being happy to drink whatever Diageo decide my local is allowed to sell, but when drinking at home like a much more varied selection than the generic muck that is least offensive to all tastes.
 
It's another justification!

Joking aside, I'd love to see the impact on the craft beer industry, and if there's been an increase in employment. I'm not alone in being happy to drink whatever Diageo decide my local is allowed to sell, but when drinking at home like a much more varied selection than the generic muck that is least offensive to all tastes.
My closest friend who lives in the UK has decided to start collecting craft beer cans due to their unique designs. Best excuse I've heard to justify drinking beer, but some of the designs are fantastic and some beers 7/8% .
 
Leo varadker started talking about "outdoor dining" again end of may or something. They better not be thinking of doing the same as last year and discriminate against different hospitality venues based on dining or 9 euro meal silliness. I think the hospitality sector will put up a big fight this year and wont accept any rubbish from government or nphet. The authority of government has been seriously diminished now over the shambles of mandatory hotel quarantine and getting wrapped over the fingers by the european commision. With the UK and the north fully open this summer summer keeping hospitality largely closed again will not be tolerated by the public.
 
I think the hospitality sector will put up a big fight this year and wont accept any rubbish from government or nphet.

Last May, did you not ridicule the Government and NPHET for their cautious and phased lifting of restrictions because, in your opinion, a second coronavirus wave was "highly unlikely".

You have never explained precisely how you arrived at that opinion.
 
They better not be thinking of doing the same as last year and discriminate against different hospitality venues based on dining or 9 euro meal silliness.
Well many pubs worked around that requirement. Additionally the UK now have a similar rule.
Are you advocating just open the pubs and let people mingle and have multiple contacts indoors?
If you are you really haven't understood how this virus transmits and infects people.
 
Well many pubs worked around that requirement. Additionally the UK now have a similar rule.
Are you advocating just open the pubs and let people mingle and have multiple contacts indoors?
If you are you really haven't understood how this virus transmits and infects people.
Yes the UK brought that in towards the end of last year but only after they had failed to curb their covid numbers, it was a means to keep hospitality open but it was never pursued with the zealousness of the irish authorities last summer. It just put unnecessary cost and headache on hospitality who had to spend alot of money on kitchens and "chefs" and then got closed down anyway after a few weeks at Christmas.
It was pursued by the irish authorities as if it was a commandment handed down from on high to Moses (aka Tony Holohan)
 
Any common bond will be specific to Covid. If at all as the common Covid Bonds are now blocked till Germany’s Supreme Court decided on it.
 
Last May, did you not ridicule the Government and NPHET for their cautious and phased lifting of restrictions because, in your opinion, a second coronavirus wave was "highly unlikely".
The "abundance of caution" principal pursued by nphet focussed exclusively on coronavirus cases .It costed billions of extra euros and should have been relaxed when the case numbers dropped to the low numbers by june. It ultimately failed anyway because we still had the massive upsurge at christmas anyway. What was the point in keeping hospitality mostly closed during summer they just created a massive pent up demand for it by Christmas
 
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