Water Utility collecting PPS Numbers

Bronte

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Any chance somebody could scan the form. I'm wondering why I as owner has to register when it should actually be in my tenant's names, same as electricity etc.

I also don't understand all this debate about allowances, it's making it very complicated.
 

sahd

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Unless you are on an unmetered plan, in which case supplying additional PPN numbers costs you because your bill is based on the number of people in the household.
Unmetered bills are to be based just on teh number of adults in the house.
They only ask for one adult PPSN .
They do ask you to confirm the total number of adults in the house - so yes more adults = higher charge.
Not giving any PPSN for an adult will result in a higher unmetered bill because they will not include the free allowance.
Not supplying any info at all will result in a default charge based on 2 adults and no free allowance.
From http://www.moneyguideireland.com/unmetered-water-charges-how-will-it-work.html
 

Sumatra

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How do you think they will check??

Child Benefit is linked to the Mother and only to the Father in 2%-3% of the cases. What do you bet the vast majority of application forms have been sent out to the 'male' in the family to complete. How will they link the child's PPS number to the bill payer to give the children's water services allowance??
 

sahd

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How do you think they will check??

Child Benefit is linked to the Mother and only to the Father in 2%-3% of the cases. What do you bet the vast majority of application forms have been sent out to the 'male' in the family to complete. How will they link the child's PPS number to the bill payer to give the children's water services allowance??
Using the PPS number they will probably just..
a) check PPSN is a valid PPSN for a child getting child Benefit
b) check that a given child PPSN has not been given for anothe child at this or any other address on their system.

I don't expect them to be cross checking parents/carers and addresses.
 

SBarrett

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Just by registering for this website, you have given away a lot of personal information to a 3rd party. never mind all the details you give away on amazon, facebook etc. Then those on LinkedIn have their entire cv's up on public display. For those who have your own business, your home address and date of birth can be found in 2 seconds. If you have a limited company, even more information can be found in those 2 seconds. You give away personal information online all the time and it is constantly being sold to companies who want to sell you stuff.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 

chrisboy

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Any chance somebody could scan the form. I'm wondering why I as owner has to register when it should actually be in my tenant's names, same as electricity etc.

I also don't understand all this debate about allowances, it's making it very complicated.
Was listening to Joe Duffy today, and the reason they're looking for the landlords pps number is so if the tenant doesn't register then the landlord will be charged. It will then be upto the landlord to get reimbursed from the tenant. Unbelievable but true.
 

sahd

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Just by registering for this website, you have given away a lot of personal information to a 3rd party. never mind all the details you give away on amazon, facebook etc. Then those on LinkedIn have their entire cv's up on public display. For those who have your own business, your home address and date of birth can be found in 2 seconds. If you have a limited company, even more information can be found in those 2 seconds. You give away personal information online all the time and it is constantly being sold to companies who want to sell you stuff.
It is the PPS numbers that people seem to be more worried about - which I can kind of understand but I think it is worry probably over nothing .
The Government decided that they wanted this free water allowance thing - and I assume that they need some verification of who has had the free allowances from Irish Water. PPS is the identifier used for all govt transactions - tax, welfare, health and now water.
The PPS is probably as safe (or unsafe) with Irish Water as it it with Revenue, HSE, PTRB, Welfare and all the other bodies that use it.
 

Sumatra

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It is the access to data over and above what is required to manage a bill for water that ruffles my feathers.

Section G data protection on their application form also refers you to their full data protection notice which appears on their web site. I can't see anything in this that clearly states the eight rules of data protection which govern the processing of personal data set out.

The Eight rules are:

Obtain and process the information fairly;
Keep it only for one or more specified, explicit and lawful purposes;
Process it only in ways compatible with the purposes for which it was given to you as a utility;
Keep it safe and secure;
Ensure that is adequate, relevant and not excessive;
Retain it no longer than is necessary for the specified purpose or purposes;
Give a copy of his/her personal data, on request.

Their current data protection statement is a shambles and without clarification and revision I can't see how it is possible for the vast majority of people to return their completed forms by the deadline.
 

Time

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If you are only a waste water only customer do you need to apply for allowances?
 

SBarrett

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It is the PPS numbers that people seem to be more worried about - which I can kind of understand but I think it is worry probably over nothing .
The Government decided that they wanted this free water allowance thing - and I assume that they need some verification of who has had the free allowances from Irish Water. PPS is the identifier used for all govt transactions - tax, welfare, health and now water.
The PPS is probably as safe (or unsafe) with Irish Water as it it with Revenue, HSE, PTRB, Welfare and all the other bodies that use it.
I don't know why. If they think someone will rob their identity, there have probably given more than enough information to less secure organisation to have their identity cloned.

Another way of looking at it is that society has become so dishonest as a whole. We cannot be trusted not to abuse the system by declaring the actual number of people living in each house.

Anyway, lots of ammunition for Joe Duffy. I must download a few podcasts to hear the hysteria.
 

Sumatra

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If they think someone will rob their identity, there have probably given more than enough information to less secure organisation to have their identity cloned.
There are less than 50 authorised bodies to use PPS numbers under Social Welfare Law and those bodies have clearly stated what information they obtain and what they use it for. Irish Water have not.
 

Bronte

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Using the PPS number they will probably just..
a) check PPSN is a valid PPSN for a child getting child Benefit
b) check that a given child PPSN has not been given for anothe child at this or any other address on their system.

I don't expect them to be cross checking parents/carers and addresses.
Based on their incompetence so far, 6K letters sent incorrectly, many landlords not receiving any letter despite being in multiple 'systems', those landlords that have received letters have been linked to incorrect premises (according to my phone call with Irish water they are spending most of their time rectifying the system they have) I wouldn't hold out much hope for them cross checking anything.
 

Bronte

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Was listening to Joe Duffy today, and the reason they're looking for the landlords pps number is so if the tenant doesn't register then the landlord will be charged. It will then be upto the landlord to get reimbursed from the tenant. Unbelievable but true.
Don't believe everything you hear on Joe Duffy, and don't ever believe that Irish state bodies are telling the truth.

It seems to me, if I give them my PPS number and register as landlord, then I could potentially be liable.

However if I don't register or give them my PPS voluntarily they cannot bill me. But they are threatening us right now hoping we stupidly will register.

So far my conclusion as non resident landlord is that I simple notifiy them that I am a non occupier of any property and they are not to charge me anything. I have no intention of pursuing my tenants for a quango like Irish water.

I fully however support water charges. They have enough time and money to waste, let them go out and chase the tenants. 150 million or so on consultants and start up costs.
 

Bronte

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There are less than 50 authorised bodies to use PPS numbers under Social Welfare Law and those bodies have clearly stated what information they obtain and what they use it for. Irish Water have not.
I've no idea who those 50 authorised bodies are. But every landlord in the country is legally obliged to collect the PPS number of their tenants for registration with the PRTB.

Now does that mean we are authorised or not? No idea.
 

olddoll

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Irish Water say they require the PPS number to determine the free water allowance for each household. Can they decide at a future date to reduce the water allowance and/or eliminate it? What would prevent them from doing this?
 

Sumatra

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Olddoll, if I was an EU citizen living in Ireland and my child lived in another EU country I could get the Child water allowance here.

Hi Bronte, see http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Personal-Public-Service-Number-Register-of-Users.aspx

Note: Above site last updated 28/08/2014 and to date Irish Water have not replied to answer the 5 questions. Also note, Irish Water's application guide and application form that we received in the post is version IW/V/Form/0814
 

Time

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Why do they still need it if you are only using the sewerage only? It is simply bizarre.
 

STEINER

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if I was an EU citizen living in Ireland and my child lived in another EU country I could get the Child water allowance here.
I find it laughable that a child water allowance be given for a child who doesn't use any water in this country.
 

michaelm

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Irish Water reduces free allowance for children . . Allocation of 38,000 litres announcedby Government cut to 21,000 litres . .
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-water-reduces-free-allowance-for-children-1.1884285
My understanding is that the expected usage for a single occupancy household is 66,000 and increasing by 21,000 for each additional person; and as the government don't want to be seen to be charging children for water their free allowance (now 21,000 down from 38,000) is supposed to cover the average usage attributable to a child.

My meter was installed in September last year so, assuming the meter read 0 when installed, I know what I've used, having read it this week. I have no doubt that our water usage is not excessive and not untypical. If I take it that the expected 87,000 usage for two adults is probably about right then my kids used 26,500 on average . . so their free allowance covers <80% of normal usage.
 

sahd

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I find it laughable that a child water allowance be given for a child who doesn't use any water in this country.
It would only be given if someone lied on the form and stated the child was living in the house. It won't be automatic.
 
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