Duke of Marmalade
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Tan War or War of Independence?
President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?
- Thread starter Dave Vanian
- Start date
nation
[ˈneɪʃ(ə)n]
NOUN
- a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.
"the world's leading industrialized nations"
synonyms:
country · state · land · sovereign state · nation state · kingdom · empire · republic · confederation · federation · commonwealth · power · superpower · polity · domain ·
[more]
Article 2
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation.
Article 3
It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland
Article 1
The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.
(In other words Purple, its not down to either you or me)
- The only thing that was ceded in the GFA was the absolute authority of the Irish parliament and government to exercise jurisdiction over the whole country
"the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory"
- replaced by
"Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island."
The country is the whole island, Ireland. The State is called Ireland, there are two jurisdictions, 26 country jurisdiction and 6 county jurisdiction. The 26 county jurisdiction is officially described as "The Republic of Ireland", under the 1948 Act.
There is no 26 county Irish State in legislation or in the Constitution.
There is the Government of Ireland representing the Irish State, or the State that is officially called Ireland, that has absolute authority to govern over the 26 county jurisdiction and may exercise powers and functions in institutions that are shared between the two jurisdictions on the island, country of Ireland.
Ok, so the answer is no. You still don't accept that this country is called Ireland. Weird.
nation
[ˈneɪʃ(ə)n]
NOUN
- a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.
"the world's leading industrialized nations"
synonyms:
country · state · land · sovereign state · nation state · kingdom · empire · republic · confederation · federation · commonwealth · power · superpower · polity · domain ·
[more]
Article 2
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation.
Article 3
It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland
Article 1
The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.
(In other words Purple, its not down to either you or me)
- The only thing that was ceded in the GFA was the absolute authority of the Irish parliament and government to exercise jurisdiction over the whole country
"the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory"
- replaced by
"Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island."
The country is the whole island, Ireland. The State is called Ireland, there are two jurisdictions, 26 country jurisdiction and 6 county jurisdiction. The 26 county jurisdiction is officially described as "The Republic of Ireland", under the 1948 Act.
There is no 26 county Irish State in legislation or in the Constitution.
There is the Government of Ireland representing the Irish State, or the State that is officially called Ireland, that has absolute authority to govern over the 26 county jurisdiction and may exercise powers and functions in institutions that are shared between the two jurisdictions on the island, country of Ireland.
The Supreme Court has clarified the constitutional position.
In 1989 Judge Niall McCarthy rejected a British extradition warrant which referred to this country as Éire and not Ireland. He said;
"In the English language the name of this State is "Ireland" and is so prescribed by Article 4 of the Constitution. Of course if the courts of the United Kingdom or of other States choose to issue warrants in the Irish language then they are at liberty to use the Irish language name of the State ... However, they are not at liberty to attribute to this State a name which is not its correct name ... If there is any confusion in the United Kingdom courts possibly it is due to the terms of the United Kingdom statute named the Ireland Act, 1949 ... That enactment purported to provide that this State should be "referred to ... by the name attributed to it by the law thereof, that is to say, as the Republic of Ireland" (emphasis supplied). That of course is an erroneous statement of the law of Ireland. Historically it is even more difficult to explain. There is only one State in the world named Ireland since it was so provided by Article 4 of the Constitution in 1937 and that name was recognised by a communiqué from No. 10 Downing Street, London in 1937."
The UK doesn't need to extradite people from Northern Ireland since Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
In 1989 Judge Niall McCarthy rejected a British extradition warrant which referred to this country as Éire and not Ireland. He said;
"In the English language the name of this State is "Ireland" and is so prescribed by Article 4 of the Constitution. Of course if the courts of the United Kingdom or of other States choose to issue warrants in the Irish language then they are at liberty to use the Irish language name of the State ... However, they are not at liberty to attribute to this State a name which is not its correct name ... If there is any confusion in the United Kingdom courts possibly it is due to the terms of the United Kingdom statute named the Ireland Act, 1949 ... That enactment purported to provide that this State should be "referred to ... by the name attributed to it by the law thereof, that is to say, as the Republic of Ireland" (emphasis supplied). That of course is an erroneous statement of the law of Ireland. Historically it is even more difficult to explain. There is only one State in the world named Ireland since it was so provided by Article 4 of the Constitution in 1937 and that name was recognised by a communiqué from No. 10 Downing Street, London in 1937."
The UK doesn't need to extradite people from Northern Ireland since Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
I'm aware that I am like someone arguing evolution with a Creationist in that no amount of facts or logic will dissuade you from your ideological position but it's a bit of fun scoring into an open goal.
Duke of Marmalade
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@WolfeTone I see you will not answer "Tan War or War of Independence". But do you not concede that the use of the term "Tan War" in that link is very weird indeed? I never heard it called that. This was an important "official" document ex cathedra from West Belfast HQ no less and their Quran dictates that they call the WoI the Tan War (presumably because in the view of the mullahs Independence never actually resulted from that conflict) and of course on no account whatsoever should an epistle addressing partition ever call the southern part of that partition by any of its official names or descriptions, if necessary by the the contortion of not referring to it all.
Yes. I know. What is your point? We are talking about Ireland here. The official name of the State, the official name of the country, which despite spelling it out to you in black & white, it is Ireland, you seem to think that I
Weird
You can't back up the claim you made?
It's not that I won't answer it's because I have given my opinion on these matters before. I call it the Irish Junta War.
The sole purpose is to pidgeon hole me into some rabid Shinner, as Purple is trying to do in order to avoid facing the reality that the "territorial claim" that we dropped was not actually what he thinks it is.
The "territorial claim" dropped, was with regard to the prescribed constitutional right of the parliament and government to make laws in the 6 county jurisdiction in exchange for institutional powers and functions on a shared basis.
Somehow, Purple has translated that into meaning that the 6 counties is a foreign country where the Irish State has no say at all, ergo, it must be a 'different country'.
But if he were to take his head of out these pages and look around him he will see that in the world of Brexit between UK and EU it is our country, in its entirety, north and south that has tied the UK and EU up in knots.
As I have explained to you, but clearly Purple chooses to ignore, it is not because of some teary-eyed sentiment for leprachauns and Guinness that the good people of Brussels have found themselves in this quagmire. It is because of a recognition of the official status of the Irish State regarding the position of Northern Ireland, underpinned by international agreement and legislation that the Irish State has, and does, exercise power and functions in shared institutions in the six county jurisdiction.
The official name of the country is Ireland
The official name of the State is Ireland
The official description of the 26 county state is "The Republic of Ireland"
The constitution recognises that there are two jurisdictions in the country. It used to afford absolute authority to the parliament and government to exercise laws over the whole territory, now it restricts it the 26 county jurisdiction and permits shared authority in the 6 county jurisdiction.
It is FG that is exerting the rights of the Irish State.
Exactly. Our country, Ireland, comprises 26 counties.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. It is subject to UK law and not Irish law. It is not part of the country called Ireland. For someone who is so interested in the place it seems you've never been there or else you'd know that. They use UK Pounds. They have UK road signs. It's part of a different country. You mightn't like that but them's the facts. No amount of wishful thinking or Orwellian New-Speak from your Party will change that.
You definitely drank the Shinner Kool-Aid. They, along with the Tories in England and the Rabid Unionists in Northern Ireland, insult this country and every Irish Citizen when they demean it by referring to it as merely a Jurisdiction. Maybe if the Shinners acknowledged reality they'd also have to acknowledge that they are run from a foreign country by a terrorist organisation. That reality really would hurt, like punishment beating sore.
Duke of Marmalade
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Jayz, so saying War of Independence is the equivalent of cartoons of the Prophet to the Republican Faithful. You don't mind me calling you a member of the RF, do you?
I haven't heard him argue that we have no say. Lithuania is a foreign country in which we have a say (per EU institutions). In some ways NI is more foreign than Lithuania, as @Purple has pointed out, NI uses a different currency and different measures of distance/speed on its road signs.
That is not the reason at all. It is that they have been persuaded that the "peace" brought about by the GFA would be jeopardised by a hard border.
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Duke of Marmalade
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Now if you really want a bunfight open a thread (probably already done) on whether it is called the Good Friday Agreement or the Belfast Agreement.
It'll be like the Airport in Derry, called "City of Derry Londonderry Airport" by the cabin crew as you land there.Now if you really want a bunfight open a thread (probably already done) on whether it is called the Good Friday Agreement or the Belfast Agreement.
Duke of Marmalade
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I feel sorry for BBC news editors. They seem to have to go out of their way to refer to it an even number of times in news bulletins changing name each time. I suppose they alternate which comes first between bulletins.
No such qualms with RTÉ, they refuse to use the official name. We know they are stuffed with SF/RF.
If they refer to it by anything other than City of Derry Airport they are wrong.I feel sorry for BBC news editors. They seem to have to go out of their way to refer to it an even number of times in news bulletins changing name each time. I suppose they alternate which comes first between bulletins.
No such qualms with RTÉ, they refuse to use the official name. We know they are stuffed with SF/RF.