President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?

[Purple]

Purple, you are blathering. The name of the country is Ireland. The name of the State is Ireland.

I use it all the time, as do SF.

You are in denial at what the Constitution says. It is clear it identifies two jurisdictions. It is clear it names 'The State' as 'Ireland' . It is clear it wants to unite the two jurisdictions - aka the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

It is clear that the Constitution extends the jurisdiction of the State beyond the limitations of the 26 county state, identified as a jurisdiction by the Constitution and described, officially through legislation, as the Republic of Ireland.
Your descript of Ireland applying to the 26 counties is a misinterpretation of what the Constitution says.
When referring to the 26 county jurisdiction, the 26 county state, you should use the official descript of Republic of Ireland.

After all, this is what the President of Ireland took offence too. He is the President of Ireland, a nation of people that extends to the entire island, its islands and seas. He is not the President of a limited 26 county jurisdiction.

If you have respect for our Constitution and for Ireland, please use the correct titles - RoI for 26 counties, and Ireland for the entire nation of people born on the island of Ireland.

More Orwellian double speak. The 1948 Republic of Ireland Act declares that the name of this State is Ireland and that the description of this State is the Republic of Ireland. It also clarified that the State comprises the 26 counties. That's the legal position. That's the internationally recognised position. Them's the facts.

 

[Leo]

When referring to the 26 county jurisdiction, the 26 county state, you should use the official descript of Republic of Ireland.

Why defer to a description when you can use it's official name?

 

[WolfeTone]

The 1948 Republic of Ireland Act declares that the name of this State is Ireland

I don't think so.

and that the description of this State is the Republic of Ireland.

'this State' being the salient point - the 26 county State, which the Constitution is silent on save the recognition of two jurisdictions. Which I'm sure we can reasonably agree those two jurisdictions are the 26 county jurisdiction and the 6 county jurisdiction.

The Constitution does not define the boundaries or limitations of 'The State' rather it extends them to the nation of people born on the island of Ireland as an entitlement and it facilitates the The State, Ireland, to exercise powers and functions in institutions established on a shared basis in any part of the island.

This is 'the State', Ireland, as recognised in the Constitution.

The 26 county State (as that is what it is, a State) is the Republic of Ireland.
Michael McDowell once accused SF as trying to establish a State within a State. Ironically, it is the partitionists, through the limitation of referring to the 26 county state as 'Ireland' rather than its correct descript "Republic of Ireland" that have created a state within The State of Ireland (as recognised by the Constitution).

It also clarified that the State comprises the 26 counties

Yes, the 26 county state - to be described as the Republic of Ireland.
That is the entitlement of the legislature.
The legislature is subservient to the Constitution and the Constitution calls the The State, Ireland, which under the Constitution extends beyond the limitations of the partitionist mindset.

 

[Leo]

The 26 county State (as that is what it is, a State) is the Republic of Ireland.

And the state is a country, and that country is made up of the 26 counties, as they chose to register it with the UN.

The Constitution does not define the boundaries or limitations of 'The State' rather it extends them to the nation of people born on the island of Ireland as an entitlement and it facilitates the The State, Ireland, to exercise powers and functions in institutions established on a shared basis in any part of the island.

Remember, the term nation also refers to a people, including the diaspora. Note the use of 'nation' and 'Nation' in the text.

Article 3 acknowledge that the Irish Nation (country) does not include all the territory of the island.

 

[WolfeTone]

And the state is a country, and that country is made up of the 26 counties, as they chose to register it with the UN.

Yes, the 26 county state, as officially described as the Republic of Ireland under the 1948 Act.
That State, recognised under the Irish Constitution as one of two jurisdictions has but absolute executive authority to exercise laws but limited to the 26 county State.

The Constitution recognises two jurisdictions on the island of Ireland. It is the firm will to unite the two into one, and the Constitution extends the entitlement to be part of the Irish nation to everyone born anywhere on the island.
It also extends the powers of the State (Ireland) to exercise functions in institutions established on a shared basis beyond the limitations of the 26 county State (RoI).

This is what the President of Ireland objected to. Being described as the president of the Republic of Ireland, which is the 26 county State, described as such under the RoI Act.

The State, Ireland, as referred to under the Constitution extends beyond that limitation.
Michael Higgins is the President of Ireland, under the Constitution.

 

[Purple]

The State, Ireland, as referred to under the Constitution extends beyond that limitation.
Michael Higgins is the President of Ireland, under the Constitution.

This is absurd.

Michael Higgins is the President of Ireland, under the Constitution, and that State, called Ireland, is comprised of 26 counties.
The Island of Ireland has 32 counties.
The country called Ireland has 26 counties.
Arguing otherwise is just silly.

 

[WolfeTone]

Arguing otherwise is just silly.

I think you will find that the argument has been going for 100yrs!

We obviously have different interpretations of what is, and is not 'Ireland'.

I see it as the entire island, and its people born anywhere on the island. Currently under two jurisdictions that the Constitution itself willfully wants to unite.

You appear to think 'Ireland' is a country that is established under a piece of legislation called the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948, which you incorrectly claimed it declares the name of the State to be Ireland.

It's clear, you have based your assumption on your own misinterpretation the RoI Act, 1948.

 

[Purple]

I think you will find that the argument has been going for 100yrs!

Yes, by the wilfully ignorant.

We obviously have different interpretations of what is, and is not 'Ireland'.

But there's only one set of facts and the fact is that this country is called Ireland and it is made up of 26 counties.

I see it as the entire island, and its people born anywhere on the island. Currently under two jurisdictions that the Constitution itself willfully wants to unite.

Yes, that aspiration is there but until it is realised the country of Ireland is made up of 26 counties.

You appear to think 'Ireland' is a country that is established under a piece of legislation called the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948, which you incorrectly claimed it declares the name of the State to be Ireland.

No, the 1948 act clarified the official description of the country of Ireland.

It's clear, you have based your assumption on your own misinterpretation the RoI Act, 1948.

Nonsense.

 

[WolfeTone]

Yes, by the wilfully ignorant.

Perhaps, but that is why the willfully ignorant thought a partition of the island would resolve the political differences. Instead it just compounded them starting with a civil war.

But there's only one set of facts and the fact is that this country is called Ireland

Yes, it is called Ireland, nobody is disputing that.

and it is made up of 26 counties.

No, that State is called The Republic of Ireland, its in the The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948. Why do keep ignoring that?

Yes, that aspiration is there but until it is realised the country of Ireland is made up of 26 counties.

It is not. It is an absurdity that Ireland is made up of 26 counties when clearly, at any given time, the county count is 32.
The Republic of Ireland, is made up of 26 counties. Northern Ireland is made up of 6.

The Constitution recognises that the 26 county state is one, of two jurisdictions, on the entire island of Ireland.
The Constitution gives absolute authority for the State to govern the jurisdiction of the 26 counties.
But the Constitution does not limit the State to the jurisdiction of the 26 counties. It clearly permits The State to exercise powers and functions in institutions shared in the second of the two jurisdictions.
The Constitution calls this State, Ireland.

No, the 1948 act clarified the official description of the country of Ireland.

Can you quote the section?

It clarified the official description of the State with absolute authority in the 26 counties - Republic of Ireland.

But as I have said, the Constitution recognises that the State has the authority to exercise power and functions beyond the descripted 26 county state.
That State is called Ireland.

 

[Purple]

Perhaps, but that is why the willfully ignorant thought a partition of the island would resolve the political differences. Instead it just compounded them starting with a civil war.



Yes, it is called Ireland, nobody is disputing that.



No, that State is called The Republic of Ireland, its in the The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948. Why do keep ignoring that?



It is not. It is an absurdity that Ireland is made up of 26 counties when clearly, at any given time, the county count is 32.
The Republic of Ireland, is made up of 26 counties. Northern Ireland is made up of 6.

The Constitution recognises that the 26 county state is one, of two jurisdictions, on the entire island of Ireland.
The Constitution gives absolute authority for the State to govern the jurisdiction of the 26 counties.
But the Constitution does not limit the State to the jurisdiction of the 26 counties. It clearly permits The State to exercise powers and functions in institutions shared in the second of the two jurisdictions.
The Constitution calls this State, Ireland.




Can you quote the section?

It clarified the official description of the State with absolute authority in the 26 counties - Republic of Ireland.

But as I have said, the Constitution recognises that the State has the authority to exercise power and functions beyond the descripted 26 county state.
That State is called Ireland.

Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that "[t]he name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Hence, the Irish state has two official names, Éire (in Irish) and Ireland (in English).
The 1948 Act clarified that the description of the State is The Republic of Ireland.
So, the constitution clarified the name of the country and the 1948 Act clarifies the description.
You have no problem accepting that the state described as the Republic of Ireland comprises 26 counties. The constitution clarifies that the State is called Ireland.

We have no territorial claim to Northern Ireland, though we do have a clear though very ambiguous aspiration for them to join us in an all Island State.

Back to you for Shinner double speak from that boundless reserve of wilful self delusion.
I'd say that there's no harm acknowledging reality but this is SF/IRA we are talking about so that may not be the case.

 

[Firefly]

OK, here's my take...geographically, Ireland is the island but geopolitically (and legally) Ireland is the 26 counties.

No wonder it's confusing, but to be honest I don't really care as long as a possible UI stays out of the news.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I don't want to stir it up any more but do folk think that Mickey D has any authority over these places?

Other places​

• Ireland Island, Bermuda, Bermuda
• Ireland, Nova Scotia, Canada
• New Ireland Province, Papua New Guinea
• New Ireland (island), Papua New Guinea
• Ireland, Bedfordshire, United Kingdom
• Ireland, Indiana, United States
• [broken link removed], United States
• [broken link removed], United States
• Ireland, West Virginia, United States

 

[Firefly]

I don't want to stir it up any more but do folk think that Mickey D has any authority over these places?

Jaysus, don't give him ideas!!!!

 

[Leo]

Yes, the 26 county state, as officially described as the Republic of Ireland under the 1948 Act.
That State, recognised under the Irish Constitution as one of two jurisdictions has but absolute executive authority to exercise laws but limited to the 26 county State.

You're just making stuff up now. The 1948 Act makes no reference to 26 counties.

Can you point me to where the constitution claims that Ireland consists of all 32 counties?

The Constitution recognises two jurisdictions on the island of Ireland. It is the firm will to unite the two into one, and the Constitution extends the entitlement to be part of the Irish nation to everyone born anywhere on the island.

Yes, two jurisdictions as there are two countries present on the island.

Irish Nation or Irish nation? As above, they are two distinct things.

No, that State is called The Republic of Ireland, its in the The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948. Why do keep ignoring that?

It isn't, the act makes clear that the 'Republic of Ireland' is a description, not the title or name.

If the government wanted the state as it stands to be officially recognised as The Republic of Ireland, they would be required to register that with the UN just like North Macedonia did when they changed their official name.

 

[Purple]

You're just making stuff up now. The 1948 Act makes no reference to 26 counties.

Can you point me to where the constitution claims that Ireland consists of all 32 counties?


Yes, two jurisdictions as there are two countries present on the island.

Irish Nation or Irish nation? As above, they are two distinct things.


It isn't, the act makes clear that the 'Republic of Ireland' is a description, not the title or name.

If the government wanted the state as it stands to be officially recognised as The Republic of Ireland, they would be required to register that with the UN just like North Macedonia did when they changed their official name.

You name's now on the list too.

 

[Leo]

You name's now on the list too.

I'll ask my local shops to keep an eye out for people bulk buying bleach.

 

[WolfeTone]

Dear @Purple you are getting into a bit of a spin.

Let's take a step back.

Art 2&3 of the Constitution, for so long the bug bear of unionists had this to say in 1937.

"The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas"

and

"without prejudice to the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory...."

It is clear that the 1937 Constitution considered the whole country as Ireland and the State to be Ireland, save for the acceptance that any laws enacted by the Parliament established under the 1937 Constitution would only be applicable to area of the Irish Free State despite having the authority to apply to the whole country.

Fast forward to 1998 and the explicit claim of physical territory over all Ireland and the right to enact laws has been ceded to institutions established on a shared basis by their respective authorities, Government of Ireland and Government of GB & NI.

In 1937 Ireland had a territorial claim that was in reality an empty jesture and purely aspirational.

In 1998 (and 1985 AIA before it) the Irish State has a real definitive say in the affairs, in part, of the affairs of NI through an international agreement between Ireland and UK.

In case you hadn't noticed, between the UK and EU this real definitive say in the affairs of NI, on a shared basis, has caused a bit of a scuffle over sovereignty, trade etc.
If the Irish State were merely the 26 Republic of Ireland that you claim it to be, then Dublin would have no business sticking its nose in. The EU would have no business standing by Irelands wishes for a sea border.
But the EU has stood steadfast behind Ireland, so far. It can only do this if it has something tangible to hold up. Its called the GFA and the real and effective foothold the Irish State has in (some) affairs of NI through institutions established on a shared basis between Britain and Ireland.
But don't ask me, or SF for that matter, ask the FG'ers and the FF'ers who are pushing this stuff to Europe and to the British Government. In fact, all across the Irish political spectrum, with the exception of Irish Unionists and partitionists, that is the broad concensus.

Ergo, the Irish State as established and recognised by the Constitution is not limited to the 26 county state ( also described as The Republic of Ireland), it does in fact extend beyond the 26 county limitation that partitionists like your goodself and others here (who are popping out of the woodwork!)

Speaking of the EU, does the Irish State extend itself to European Institutions as well? I mean, how else are EU laws derived on Ireland without the authority of the Irish State sanctioning such laws? Isn't this the Brexit blackhole that Britain and EU have found themselves in Ireland?

 

[WolfeTone]

You're just making stuff up now. The 1948 Act makes no reference to 26 counties.

Can you point me to where the constitution claims that Ireland consists of all 32 counties?

Well if its not referencing the 26 counties, then is it referencing the 32 counties?
Dont tell Purple, he will have a conniption.
Unless it is of course referring to a different number of counties that has yet to be revealed?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

If the Irish State were merely the 26 Republic of Ireland that you claim it to be, then Dublin would have no business sticking its nose in. The EU would have no business standing by Irelands wishes for a sea border.

I'm getting a bit muddled in the linguistic debate but you seem to be holding your own. I would rephrase this particular statement thus:
The EU like everybody else in the international community see Ireland, qua the current player in the international arena, as the 26 county state. But they are fully aware of the aspiration of a majority on the island to wish that to change to the 32 county state. Recognising then the huge sensitivity of a land border between the 26 and the 6, as forcefully expressed by Ireland, the EU have instead insisted on a sea border within the UK. For avoidance of doubt the sea border was not a specific wish of Ireland but the necessary backstop to protect the single market.

On a slightly separate point what do you call the bunfight between Sinn Fein and, amongst others, the Black and Tans that took place in 1919-21?
It is only fair to warn you that if you have any ambitions for yourself in today's SF the credo answer is the Tan War and not what partitionists call the War of Independence.

 

[WolfeTone]

@Duke of Marmalade yes, you could read it like that, if you want. But personally I don't think the EU would survive as entity to the extent that it is has if it were derived on such woolly sentiment. What sort of precedent would that set for any future border disputes?

Rather its substantive legal frameworks, treaties and agreements which it is derives its authority.
So the GFA, an internationally registered agreement at the UN, the British Irish Agreement Act, 1999, the recognition of the European Convention on Human Rights, the amendment of Articles 2 & 3 by the Irish State in return for substantive political oversight and influence in NI affairs.
All of these things, are the interest of the Irish State. As so, they are of the interest of the EU as the Irish State being a member.

if you have any ambitions for yourself in today's SF the credo answer is the Tan War and not what partitionists call the War of Independence.

I have no ambition in that regard. Bobby Sands, Michael Collins, James Connolly, Thomas Clarke et al... they all took up the gun with no authority from anyone but through their own self anointing.

I have no interest in lauding over sectarian murder campaigns, indiscriminate bombing, disappearing bodies, be it in 1888, 1920 or 1976.

I'm not sure how that view will chime with SF?

I stand over the ideals of 1916 Proclaimation but I reject the methods in achieving them.
We have been through this before, 1998 saw the ascendency of politics over militancy win through. That is what I stand over. SF ascendency is good for those ideals. If they continue it will force an end to the partitionist thinking within FF/FG and SDLP as they merge into an alternative All Ireland party (taking a lot of SF vote also) .

One that Unionism will no longer be able ignore or hide behind the threat of militant Republicanism.