Key Post Electric Vehicles

Leo

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Good old Mazda looking out for us by not producing those pesky polluting electric cars.
Ah, Mazda are producing electric cars. They're behind some of the competition, but they are producing them. Of course they're also making some strange decisions like stifling their EV's performance so they perform more like ICEs!
 

Zenith63

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It's certainly improving but I'm thinking more in the 6+ age category, and what the impact an increasing awareness of the price of replacement batteries might have there. Right now, €10k will buy you a 7 year old BMW 3 Series, would you buy a 7 year old EV privately with no guarantee on range knowing that a dud battery will set you back €30k?
I guess I'm saying that I don't think reality matches perception here. Dud batteries are extremely rare - Leafs have been on the road for 10+ years now and are often voted the most reliable cars by owners - what is more real is the battery degrading over time. As above this degradation is much slower than it used to be, people keeping cars to 200-300,000km and then having to buy a new battery are absolute edge cases. Average people doing 15000 a year are exceptionally unlikely to ever experience the need to replace a battery - the Leaf comes with an 8 year battery warranty, after 8 years a Leaf is likely to be worth maybe €5-6k, it would make no financial sense for anybody to spend €30k repairing a car of this value, in the same way nobody spends €20-30k replacing engines in 6-7 year old BMW diesels that are toast after timing chain failures (and who doesn't know at least one person to have experienced this?).


No doubt, but a few of the counter arguments to Mazda's statement that I've read seem to be assuming that EV users are almost exclusively using renewable energy. We're hoping to hit 55% by 2030, and we know what our record with targets is like. They're also assuming some pretty optimistic numbers for batter manufacturing. Long range batteries add hundreds of kilos to the weight of a car, carrying that weight for short journeys is inefficient, even with regenerative braking.
This summary and the full report seem fairly convincing to me, their conclusions are that EVs are cleaner even in US states that still rely heavily on coal for electricity generation - https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave. The UCS seem like a credible independent source to me - it was created by a group of scientists/students from MIT - though of course I'm open to correction on that.


Transport accounts for 43% of national energy demand, and private cars account for ~40% of that (the SEAI include aviation in the transport figures), EVs won't suit public transport or freight uses, so the target is more realistically some fraction of that 40%.
Sorry I was primarily thinking of NOx and particulate matter here. Both are extremely localised, as in a few meters from a road they drop right down, so transport is responsible for virtually all of this. So particularly in cities if you could take 30/40/50% of petrol/diesel cars off the roads it would bring the levels down well below WHO recommended limits. 100% agree with your point that replacing personal cars is not the whole story when it comes to the likes of CO2/SOx emissions which have wider impact areas.


Look EVs have plenty of flaws, but for the good of consumers thinking of buying cars in the coming years I'd just love if we could discuss the real ones and not the ones that I feel are mostly FUD spread by car dealers/manufacturers/oil-industry/mis-informed media etc. The real issues in my view are things like the poor public charging network in Ireland, range issues if you are a road warrior, the lack of a people carrier that average families can afford, the lack of <€20k models, the issue of how to charge if you don't have a driveway, misinformation (Toyota self-charging perpetual motion machines :rolleyes:) , high secondhand values from lack of supply, lack of supply of new vehicles, the high price-point of most EVs, how the national grid will adapt to increased demand from EVs/datacentres/electric-home-heating all at once etc.
 

Buddyboy

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Also, when the EV battery is no longer useful for automotive use, they are being repurposed as batteries for storage of personal solar electric panels in domestic houses.
 

AlbacoreA

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It's certainly improving but I'm thinking more in the 6+ age category, and what the impact an increasing awareness of the price of replacement batteries might have there. Right now, €10k will buy you a 7 year old BMW 3 Series, would you buy a 7 year old EV privately with no guarantee on range knowing that a dud battery will set you back €30k?
...
None of this makes sense.

You test the battery when you buy it, so why would you have a dud battery and not know the range.
Luxo barges are the one old car likely to surprise you with big bills.
Why compare a car who sole aim is low running costs, with luxo barges where running costs are is main disadvantages.
 

Leo

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the Leaf comes with an 8 year battery warranty, after 8 years a Leaf is likely to be worth maybe €5-6k, it would make no financial sense for anybody to spend €30k repairing a car of this value, in the same way nobody spends €20-30k replacing engines in 6-7 year old BMW diesels that are toast after timing chain failures (and who doesn't know at least one person to have experienced this?).
The degradation was my point, not premature failures. More EVs on the roads will increase reporting like the Portuguese example where a 7 year old car had less than 40km range, and a replacement battery was priced at €30k. If you've recently bought that car, you're going to have to write it off and splash out again. If it's an ICE of the same age, replacement engines are a small fraction of the cost of EV batteries.


This summary and the full report seem fairly convincing to me, their conclusions are that EVs are cleaner even in US states that still rely heavily on coal for electricity generation
Looks pretty comprehensive alright, will read it later.


Sorry I was primarily thinking of NOx and particulate matter here. Both are extremely localised, as in a few meters from a road they drop right down, so transport is responsible for virtually all of this. So particularly in cities if you could take 30/40/50% of petrol/diesel cars off the roads it would bring the levels down well below WHO recommended limits.
Yeah, that would have a significant impact on air quality. At at time when the mortality rates for the major causes such as cancer and heart disease are on the decline, deaths from respiratory issues are on the increase.
 

AlbacoreA

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The degradation was my point, not premature failures. More EVs on the roads will increase reporting like the Portuguese example where a 7 year old car had less than 40km range, and a replacement battery was priced at €30k. If you've recently bought that car, you're going to have to write it off and splash out again. If it's an ICE of the same age, replacement engines are a small fraction of the cost of EV batteries.
....
30k buys a new one. Not a 7yr old one. So you'd just buy another 7yr one with better tech.
 

Leo

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Why compare a car who sole aim is low running costs, with luxo barges where running costs are is main disadvantages.
As a real world example of the low running cost EV is completely uneconomical to repair after 7 years whereas the luxury model has no prospect of a similar repair bill.
 

Leo

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30k buys a new one. Not a 7yr old one. So you'd just buy another 7yr one with better tech.
Where's the market for 7 year old batteries with decent capacity figures, and how much do they cost? If new Leaf batteries are €30k, PSA Ion ones €23k, surely a second hand one with 60-70% capacity have to be worth a few k?
 

AlbacoreA

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As a real world example of the low running cost EV is completely uneconomical to repair after 7 years whereas the luxury model has no prospect of a similar repair bill.
Its an outlier. A new leaf in Portugal is 32k. You've found two battery failures in 400,000 sold. The actually cost would be €24 ish there.

Those 7 series can have a failure that costs 10k+.Gearbox 2k, suspension could be into the thousands.
7yrs of extra Tax alone will be over 7k The running costs of those cars, servicing, tyres etc. will be eye watering.

If you are that concerned you could buy an used EV with a battery lease. End of issue. They replace it if it fails.

My point was you wouldn't compare running a 1L super mini with a 5L S-Class. Never mind cherry pick some rare failure.
 

Leo

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Its an outlier. A new leaf in Portugal is 32k. You've found two battery failures in 400,000 sold. The actually cost would be €24 ish there.
Actual cost of what? Battery or the car? The €30k quoted in the article was what the dealer quoted for the batter replacement, and that was predicated on handing back the old one. Nissan for their part just apologised and said costs rose outside their control. Note those are not battery failures, they are battery degradation cases, and that issue affects all past and current battery technology. I haven't seen any proposal that eliminates oxidisation in the charging/discharging reaction.

If you are that concerned you could buy an used EV with a battery lease. End of issue. They replace it if it fails.
OK, dropping the asking price by ~€5k, while adding €1200+ pa! Plus, at what capacity will they replace it? You can be sure they won't give you a new one every 3 or 4 years. And who still does that? Renault.ie still mentions it as an option for the Zoe, but UK reporting at the end of last year said they were scrapping lease options. Nissan used to offer a lease option too, but I don't see that in their pricing/ spec anymore.

My point was you wouldn't compare running a 1L super mini with a 5L S-Class. Never mind cherry pick some rare failure.
You wouldn't of course, but this isn't comparing a 1l with a 5l ICE, it's EV Vs ICE. Battery capacity & replacement cost is a significant shift in how people need to assess second hand EVs as they age.
 

noproblem

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A lot of people are said to dislike Trump but one thing he's made everyone very aware of is the massive amount of false news and spoof being put out there by the media and others. All we hear of now is green this, green that and green the other. I take it all with a pinch of salt and this electric car rant by every Tom Dick and Harry expert is just that, a big rant. Let whoever wants to, buy their electric motor, but for goodness sake stop the expert advice from Dr Google lookers up, it's a load of cobblers. Like the pensions in this election, this getting rid of diesel motors is going to come back and bite plenty of rather substantial posteriors in the not so distant future. Long live diesel.
 

AlbacoreA

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Actual cost of what? Battery or the car? The €30k quoted in the article was what the dealer quoted for the batter replacement, and that was predicated on handing back the old one. Nissan for their part just apologised and said costs rose outside their control. Note those are not battery failures, they are battery degradation cases, and that issue affects all past and current battery technology. I haven't seen any proposal that eliminates oxidisation in the charging/discharging reaction.
The price has been misquoted all over the place. Sometimes in Dollars, some times with VAT.

These are not normal degradation hence they are failures. You are implying this is normal degradation. It isn't.

OK, dropping the asking price by ~€5k, while adding €1200+ pa! Plus, at what capacity will they replace it? You can be sure they won't give you a new one every 3 or 4 years. And who still does that? Renault.ie still mentions it as an option for the Zoe, but UK reporting at the end of last year said they were scrapping lease options. Nissan used to offer a lease option too, but I don't see that in their pricing/ spec anymore.
You were talking about used cars. If you buy a used car with a lease you have take the lease.
For Renault its was below 75% battery.
Its only on new cars Renault have scrapped it, and only on some models. (I don't know if this is all markets its unclear)
Why because degradation wasn't a significant issue, and thus the premium for the lease wasn't popular.

You wouldn't of course, but this isn't comparing a 1l with a 5l ICE, it's EV Vs ICE. Battery capacity & replacement cost is a significant shift in how people need to assess second hand EVs as they age.
If there is a rare failure on a particular model of ICE car you don't assume it will happen on all ICE cars.
 

AlbacoreA

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A lot of people are said to dislike Trump but one thing he's made everyone very aware of is the massive amount of false news and spoof being put out there by the media and others. All we hear of now is green this, green that and green the other. I take it all with a pinch of salt and this electric car rant by every Tom Dick and Harry expert is just that, a big rant. Let whoever wants to, buy their electric motor, but for goodness sake stop the expert advice from Dr Google lookers up, it's a load of cobblers. Like the pensions in this election, this getting rid of diesel motors is going to come back and bite plenty of rather substantial posteriors in the not so distant future. Long live diesel.
Its really about the pricing. If they make it more economical to run petrol then people will switch to that.
Its why petrol and large engines, are so popular in the states because its cheap to run.

But people aren't comparing apple with apples. People are comparing entirely disparate types of vehicles for hyperbole and sound bites.
 

PGF2016

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A lot of people are said to dislike Trump but one thing he's made everyone very aware of is the massive amount of false news and spoof being put out there by the media and others. All we hear of now is green this, green that and green the other. I take it all with a pinch of salt and this electric car rant by every Tom Dick and Harry expert is just that, a big rant. Let whoever wants to, buy their electric motor, but for goodness sake stop the expert advice from Dr Google lookers up, it's a load of cobblers. Like the pensions in this election, this getting rid of diesel motors is going to come back and bite plenty of rather substantial posteriors in the not so distant future. Long live diesel.
Not sure if you're trolling but diesel is already biting us. People are dying due to the fumes. It's filthy. Not sure why you'd be so attached to it.
 

noproblem

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Not sure if you're trolling but diesel is already biting us. People are dying due to the fumes. It's filthy. Not sure why you'd be so attached to it.
No, I certainly am not trolling, are you?
I'm also attached to butter (at times), pastries, coffee cake, etc, but I can't see it being banned. If you don't mind me saying it, but you not knowing why some people are attached to diesel cars worries me somewhat. You should get out more and watch what people drive, go talk to some farmers, company reps, mum's and dads, industry, etc, etc. I also feel that some people are totally carried away with this green spiel, maybe the coming election will back me up when voters start to see what the green policies are going to cost, financially , socially and in everyday implementation.
 
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PGF2016

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maybe the coming election will back me up when voters start to see what the green policies are going to cost, financially , socially and in everyday implementation.
What about the cost of the current non-green policies? Have you heard about the fires in Australia?

Way off topic.
 

AlbacoreA

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....this electric car rant by every Tom Dick and Harry expert is just that, a big rant. Let whoever wants to, buy their electric motor, but for goodness sake stop the expert advice from Dr Google lookers up, it's a load of cobblers. ....
I genuinely don't know what this means. It's seems to be a rant about a rant.

I don't see the relevance of Trump. He's like a broken clock, right twice a day. Completely by accident.
 

noproblem

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What about the cost of the current non-green policies? Have you heard about the fires in Australia?

Way off topic.
I live in Ireland. Most of the time and yes I've heard all about the fires in parts of Australia. Why do you ask?
 
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