Key Post Electric Vehicles

lledlledlled

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I've yet to come across an EV thread here on AAM so thought I might start one to see what people's opinions.

Open to any/all comments on the subject but to kick off, maybe we could start with the following issues...

1. Range anxiety - the main barrier for most people I think. Maybe the Hyundai Kona is a game changer in this regard for some people

2. Charge Points - locations particularly lacking in a nearby charge point.

3. Incentives - should there be free parking at charge Points? Should non-EVs be allowed park at and block a charge point?

4. Makes and Models, pros and cons
 

Zenith63

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My wife and I both drive EVs, absolutely love them and once you get used to how quick they are, the smoothness of the drive, the quietness, waking up to a ‘full tank’ every morning, not going to petrol stations every few days, the low cost, the sturdy feel of the cars (the heavy battery means even a small car feels chunky, like that typical German luxury brand feel) etc there is no going back, ever.

There’s no doubt that you need to choose an EV that suits your needs, if you drive 50000km a year, all on the motorway, or you live in an apartment so cannot get a home charger, you probably should not be buying an EV yet.

To your questions -
1. Within 3-4 weeks you learn the range of the car and this mostly goes away. Queuing anxiety at chargers is much more real, because right not the charging network is a bit overburdened, but the ESB and Ionity are doing big roll-outs as we speak to fix this.

2. If you have home charging then you will hopefully be doing 95%+ of your charging at home, so the charging network is not a major deal, and as I say is about to improve very significantly.

3. I’d say no and no. We want people to use chargers then move their cars so others can get in there, so both charging and parking should come at a cost.

4. The 24kWh Leafs are incredible value if you just want to drive around the city with the very odd longer journey. €10k would get you a low mileage high spec 2014 capable of 120km per charge. The Ionia also gets very good reports. If you have more money to throw around, then the newer generation (Leaf+, Kona, eNiro, Tesla Model3) will all do 3-400km and are either available or will be by the summer, in the €35-45k price range.



The 0% BIK, Accelerated Capital Allowance Scheme and partial VAT rebate make EVs very attractive as company cars FWIW.
 

lledlledlled

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My wife and I both drive EVs, absolutely love them and once you get used to how quick they are, the smoothness of the drive, the quietness, waking up to a ‘full tank’ every morning, not going to petrol stations every few days, the low cost, the sturdy feel of the cars (the heavy battery means even a small car feels chunky, like that typical German luxury brand feel) etc there is no going back, ever.

There’s no doubt that you need to choose an EV that suits your needs, if you drive 50000km a year, all on the motorway, or you live in an apartment so cannot get a home charger, you probably should not be buying an EV yet.

To your questions -
1. Within 3-4 weeks you learn the range of the car and this mostly goes away. Queuing anxiety at chargers is much more real, because right not the charging network is a bit overburdened, but the ESB and Ionity are doing big roll-outs as we speak to fix this.

2. If you have home charging then you will hopefully be doing 95%+ of your charging at home, so the charging network is not a major deal, and as I say is about to improve very significantly.

3. I’d say no and no. We want people to use chargers then move their cars so others can get in there, so both charging and parking should come at a cost.

4. The 24kWh Leafs are incredible value if you just want to drive around the city with the very odd longer journey. €10k would get you a low mileage high spec 2014 capable of 120km per charge. The Ionia also gets very good reports. If you have more money to throw around, then the newer generation (Leaf+, Kona, eNiro, Tesla Model3) will all do 3-400km and are either available or will be by the summer, in the €35-45k price range.



The 0% BIK, Accelerated Capital Allowance Scheme and partial VAT rebate make EVs very attractive as company cars FWIW.
Wow, two EVs in the one house. You have lots of experience so.
I test drove a Kona and couldn't believe how smooth and powerful it was to drive. Didn't get to take it onto a motorway though.

You posted some interesting answers.

1. Queuing anxiety - it might help if there was some kind of financial penalty or clamping for people who overstay at charge points. Is there any evidence of people parking up at a charge point and heading off to work for the day?
I understand esb are due to begin charging for use of their chargers, which have been free up to now. If fees could be structured such that the first two hours were free, next two hours cost x, any hour after that costs x multiplied by y, it might go some way to freeing up charge points for others.
It's great that esb are putting in additional chargers now to keep up with demand. However, I think supply of chargers needs to stay way ahead of demand if the EV network is to be properly rolled out. We have a once in a generation opportunity to make a real change to private transport.

2. I'm hoping to charge in work 75% of the time and use the public charge points 25%. I may be naive but going to see if I can get away with not installing a charger at home. It'll be a company vehicle so will be difficult to claim back the electricity costs from by domestic bill.

3. I definitely think it's crazy that non-EVs can park on front of a charge point and block it all day. These spaces should be designated as EV only.
You mentioned the BIK exemption incentive below. Hopefully this is extended way beyond the current 3yr period. The uncertainty created by short extensions is unhelpful to perspective buyers. I wouldn't be getting an EV if this exemption wasn't in place. If it expires in 3yrs time, I will likely no longer be able to drive the EV.

4. I've noticed a few Nissan Leafs recently. Not sure if they were Leaf+ but they certainly seem to have been given a slick remodel. The Zoe looks a nice little hatch too. I think it's important that EVs look the part too. One of the problems with the original hybrid Prius was its dawdy image. They need to look cool, which I think Tesla have captured, but out of my price range I think. I'm leaning towards the Kona - nice car and the long range seals the deal for me. I won't have many long journeys (if any) but I figure I'll only need to find a charge point a couple of times a week with the 64kW battery


If others have experience/opinion, it'd be great to add here as a reference point for people considering buying an EV.
 

Brendan Burgess

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Great thread and I have made it a Key Post.

How many fully electric vehicle models are there?

For some reason, I had assumed it was only Tesla.

If there is such a choice, why is there such a fuss about Tesla?

Brendan
 

Purple

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The battery will wear out. Warranties are around 100,000Km or 8 to 10 years and the replacement cost is €5000+.
That said the running cost per year for a Nissan Leaf is about €1000 cheaper than a small diesel Focus or Golf.
 

lledlledlled

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Great thread and I have made it a Key Post.

How many fully electric vehicle models are there?

For some reason, I had assumed it was only Tesla.

If there is such a choice, why is there such a fuss about Tesla?

Brendan
I think a lot of the fuss about Tesla is due to the high profile of their Chief Executive. They are also a very innovate company and make cool looking cars.
 

lledlledlled

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So the Leaf is the best selling EV in Ireland - sells more than the rest put together.

http://www.irishevowners.ie/best-selling-irish-bevs-for-2018-new-car-sales/

View attachment 3633
This table is for 2018. Things are moving quite quickly in the world of EVs so this is out of date now.

I'll try dig out proof but I read that EV sales in Ireland for the first 3 months of 2019 have already exceeded the 12 months total for 2018. If that's true and continues, a lot of investment will be required in order to keep the charging network ahead of demand.

A big positive is Lidl's announcement that all new stores will have EV charge points for customer use. I think that's a win-win for customers and Lidl.

If my Hyundai dealer is to be believed, the Kona is now the best selling EV in Ireland, based on first 3 months of 2019. They only launched in January so aren't on your chart.
 

lledlledlled

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The battery will wear out. Warranties are around 100,000Km or 8 to 10 years and the replacement cost is €5000+.
That said the running cost per year for a Nissan Leaf is about €1000 cheaper than a small diesel Focus or Golf.
Is this the case for first generation EV batteries or has the battery wear concern been somewhat abated with this new generation of batteries e.g. 64kWh battery in the Kona?
 

Coldwarrior

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The battery will wear out. Warranties are around 100,000Km or 8 to 10 years and the replacement cost is €5000+.
This is my main concern with EVs, I'd imagine there'd be a big hit on the resale value when it comes to upgrade.
 

lledlledlled

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This is my main concern with EVs, I'd imagine there'd be a big hit on the resale value when it comes to upgrade.
But it's important to ask if the fear of battery wear is applicable to the modern EV batteries or is it based on the old technology?

I agree with you about resale values. These will be impacted as long as the fear about battery wear exists, whether it's a fear based on fact or not.
There are still people who won't buy a car which was once driven in the UK, based on the fact that they put salt on the roads over there. It ignores the fact that we now also salt our roads every winter, and cars are much more resistant to it than the old rust buckets.
Sometimes perception is as important as fact.

Hopefully we can get to a point soon/now that the battery wear issue is baseless and poor resale values are simply an opportunity for people to get great value when buying a used EV.
 

galway_blow_in

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Great thread and I have made it a Key Post.

How many fully electric vehicle models are there?

For some reason, I had assumed it was only Tesla.

If there is such a choice, why is there such a fuss about Tesla?

Brendan

Tesla are in an elite segment all on their own, the brand has incredible prestige, I'm not saying it's entirely justified but even four year old Teslas are close on 60k, you are talking 90k new

They do look futuristic in design and styling
 

lledlledlled

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Nissan offer a 5 year, 60,000 mile warranty on the Leaf (new model) in the UK.
Apart from Kia, I'm not aware of any non-EV car manufacturer that offers a warranty of more than 5yrs. Even models costing multiples of a new Leaf.
 

lledlledlled

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Tesla are in an elite segment all on their own, the brand has incredible prestige, I'm not saying it's entirely justified but even four year old Teslas are close on 60k, you are talking 90k new

They do look futuristic in design and styling
Tesla Model 3 brand new starts at 30k
 

PGF2016

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Tesla Model 3 brand new starts at 30k
Where? The goal was $35k but I Tesla have ended up selling more expensive models with software restrictions for $35k.

The battery will wear out. Warranties are around 100,000Km or 8 to 10 years and the replacement cost is €5000+.
What do you mean wear out? And how soon?

I believe battery degradation especially in newer models is not an issue in the short to medium term (i.e. good for more than 10 years). And if / when they do 'wear out' they can be re-used for other purposes.
 

lledlledlled

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Where? The goal was $35k but I Tesla have ended up selling more expensive models with software restrictions for $35k.


What do you mean wear out? And how soon?

I believe battery degradation especially in newer models is not an issue in the short to medium term (i.e. good for more than 10 years). And if / when they do 'wear out' they can be re-used for other purposes.
Yes, $35,000 or €31,400.
I don't know how to link an article but if you Google Model 3 Telsa Ireland, there is an Irish Times article from 1st March 2019.
 

Purple

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What do you mean wear out? And how soon?
Wear out; not hold their charge any more. Have you a mobile phone? Does the battery like deteriorate? Yes? Well that.

I believe battery degradation especially in newer models is not an issue in the short to medium term (i.e. good for more than 10 years). And if / when they do 'wear out' they can be re-used for other purposes.
If it's that good how come they are still only offering the same warranty?
What other purposes can they be used for? Can you use them to construct a patio or something?
 

lledlledlled

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Wear out; not hold their charge any more. Have you a mobile phone? Does the battery like deteriorate? Yes? Well that.

If it's that good how come they are still only offering the same warranty?
What other purposes can they be used for? Can you use them to construct a patio or something?
But they're offering the same or better warranty than any car manufacturer besides Kia.
Many products with 5yr warranties last 10-20yrs. People usually choose to replace them before they stop working.
Not many products have a warranty of more than 5yrs.
I don't see the warranty argument at all.
 

Leo

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I think they can be used to store electricity from solar panels on houses or from wind turbines ( domestic, not commercial).
They are more likely to be refurbished / recycled than just re-purposed. Most people replacing are likely to opt for the €1k rebate on the €6k cost of a new battery (costs still not confirmed publicly by Nissan).

Due to the battery packs, EVs are heavy, a base Leaf is more than 20% heavier than the base model Qashqai or 25% heavier than a Ford Focus. This means more energy in crash situations, and battery pack damage is quite expensive to repair.
 
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