Key Post Electric Vehicles

lledlledlled

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Absolutely. One charging giant who has completed a number of outlets in 2019, plans to double their infrastructure next year to a grand total of 6 (six) nationwide!! Incredible.
I'm not sure what the relevance is in comparing the number of chargers installed by one 'giant' over another. It would be like comparing the quantity of Maxol petrol pumps installed compared with Esso.

Surely the pertinent information is the total quantity of chargers installed/available. I don't think anyone would argue that sufficient public chargers are available, particularly for longer journeys.

In my opinion, at least half of public chargers should be the Fast type. I don't see the benefit (apart from cost) in installing mostly Standard type.
 

Boyd

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No wouldn't like stopping for 45 mins! Thanks, think I'll stick with the alternatives.
 

lledlledlled

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No wouldn't like stopping for 45 mins! Thanks, think I'll stick with the alternatives.
It would be interesting if you posted back here in 2yrs time, to see how the situation has changed.

- I would expect more aesthetically pleasing models would be available
- all mid-range EVs will hopefully be cheaper
- taxes on dirty diesels may put diesel off the road to a large extent
- range of EV batteries will be longer on average
- the big unknown for me remains the charging infrastructure. Maybe this will be less of an issue as EV ranges improve and employers provide charging in places of work. Maybe it will be more of an issue as the rate of EV ownership outpaces the rate of public charger installation, and drivers face queues at chargers.
 

Boyd

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Yep would be interesting but that list contains alot of unknowns and conjectures.
 

lledlledlled

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Yep would be interesting but that list contains alot of unknowns and conjectures.
It does, I admit. It's just my predictions and I could be completely wrong.
Although any list predicting the future will contain unknowns, including lists on the future of fossil fueled vehicles.
 

RichInSpirit

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886
Electric trains use an electrical connection to the grid to drive the motors, not batteries.
It might be the way to look at electric cars as well. A combination of batteries and a mobile connection to the electricity grid to charge while moving.
 

Zenith63

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594
Nissan Leaf ranges by model year -
2011: 117km
2014: 135km
2016: 172km
2018: 243km
2019: 363km

I think the whole range issue in EVs is going to be solved in the next few years through good old technical evolution, really no need for overhead power lines or anything like that, just a bit more time.
 

galway_blow_in

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Nissan Leaf ranges by model year -
2011: 117km
2014: 135km
2016: 172km
2018: 243km
2019: 363km

I think the whole range issue in EVs is going to be solved in the next few years through good old technical evolution, really no need for overhead power lines or anything like that, just a bit more time.
If only the majority of EV, s weren't so ugly
 

Zenith63

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If only the majority of EV, s weren't so ugly
I know looks are subjective, but are the majority really that ugly now? At the top end of the market the Porsche Taycan, Jaguar i-Pace, Audi e-tron, Volvo Polestar, Telsa Model S, Telsa Model X, Tesla Model 3 etc are all fairly alright looking? Then at the lower end the Leaf these days is just like any other Nissan (photo), the VW id3 (photo) is very like the Golf, the Peugeot e-208, Corsa-e, Kona, Ioniq, Kia Soul look just like their petrol versions. Most of the offensive looking EVs are no longer being sold, the BMW i3 is about the last one that doesn't look like it's petrol equivalent and there's something kind cool/funky about the latest version (photo). Think this statement was very true a few years back, but these days there's little difference between EVs and their petrol/diesel counterparts.

The cost of replacement batteries still has some way to go.
The original Leafs had issues with battery longevity, especially in hot climates, but that tech is now 10+ years old (remember how bad phone battery life was back then?). Modern EVs with decent battery chemistry and management systems are faring much better and as with the range thing, technology evolution will just keep improving this year-on-year. More recent batteries in the likes of the Hynudais and Teslas are losing less than 10% of their life after 250000km (link), so for the average person putting 15000 a year on their car this is essentially a solved problem... Again a big concern 5-6 years ago, less so now for the average driver.
 

Leo

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Modern EVs with decent battery chemistry and management systems are faring much better and as with the range thing, technology evolution will just keep improving this year-on-year.
Oh, I agree, it is certainly advancing as more and more money is being pumped into R&D. I just think it's still too early. We're still a long way off a solution to oxidisation and other issues that degrade batteries over time, and replacement battery costs need to drop significantly if EVs are to hold value similar to ICE cars.

When you have a research lead in Mazda saying they won't produce a long-range EV because their calculations show thee are more polluting than diesels, we're still a way off the case for EVs being compelling.
 

Zenith63

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594
if EVs are to hold value similar to ICE cars.
5-6 years ago that was definitely an issue, but it certainly is not any more. Here's an RTE article from last year where the numbers show that modern EVs are actually holding their value better than petrol/diesel equivalents (link). I bought two EVs 18 months ago that would sell for the same price today, and I'm painfully aware of newer models holding their values strongly as I want to buy one but they won't come down in price for me :).

When you have a research lead in Mazda saying they won't produce a long-range EV because their calculations show thee are more polluting than diesels, we're still a way off the case for EVs being compelling.
I'm not sure a manufacturer of petrol/diesel engines, who is staring down a potentially company-ending capital outlay to shift to electric is a reliable source of truth on something like this. Their claim is that if you're still using fossil fuels to generate the electricity, then EVs may not be cleaner, but most countries are rapidly replacing fossil fuels as a source of electricity generation (wind provided 30% of our electricity in 2018 and this is ever increasing) so even if this were true (independent scientists disagree with them) it would only be relevant for a short period of time until the scales were tipped. This article covers a good bit of this actually (link).

It's also worth considering that Mazda are only considering CO2 emissions here, which ultimately have no affect on you/me day-to-day. What does affect us are air pollutants like NOx, particulate matter etc. which EVs cut directly to zero in urban areas. The Irish EPA released a report last year about how air pollution on many streets around Ireland is significantly above WHO safety limits and they recommend carrying your children if you're walking near roads to keep them away from car exhaust pollution - I just think this is an astounding thing for the EPA to have to recommend to people. This is no different to the smokey coal argument; burning fossil fuels in your car is slowly poisoning those around you. In years gone by there was no alternative, but these days a significant chunk of the population could switch to EVs and actually have an improved driving experience while dropping those pollution levels down to safe limits. No need to get rid of every petrol/diesel, EVs don't suit lots of usecases yet, but 40/50/60% would make a huge difference to air quality in urban areas.
 

PGF2016

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When you have a research lead in Mazda saying they won't produce a long-range EV because their calculations show thee are more polluting than diesels, we're still a way off the case for EVs being compelling.
Good old Mazda looking out for us by not producing those pesky polluting electric cars.
 

noproblem

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Congo’s miners dying to feed world’s hunger for electric cars
Exploited by Chinese firms, workers as young as nine risk their lives to feed the world’s growing hunger for cobalt. Christina Lamb reports from Kolwezi
 

PGF2016

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352
Congo’s miners dying to feed world’s hunger for electric cars
Exploited by Chinese firms, workers as young as nine risk their lives to feed the world’s growing hunger for cobalt. Christina Lamb reports from Kolwezi
Cobalt free batteries are being developed and trialled and very little cobalt is used in existing batteries. That doesn't excuse what is happening in the Congo. The source of my information is the Fully charged podcast.

Of course when the problems with cobalt mining are brought up I would always mention that the extraction of oil has caused many problems around the world.
 

PGF2016

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352
We're like many families in that we have two cars, one of which is used for all longer journeys and a smaller secondary car mainly used for shorter local journeys. A 3 or 4 year old Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe would be preferable to our current second car. Cheaper to run, better to drive and doesn't pump out noxious gases on the school run. I look forward to getting rid of our Ice cars but it just doesn't make sense to change a prefectly good car as of yet.
 

Zenith63

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594
Congo’s miners dying to feed world’s hunger for electric cars
Exploited by Chinese firms, workers as young as nine risk their lives to feed the world’s growing hunger for cobalt. Christina Lamb reports from Kolwezi
Electric vehicles are definitely not perfect, that’s for sure! But then nothing in life is ever as black and white as ‘perfect’ solutions.

The cobalt issue is certainly real, but the reliance on cobalt in batteries reduces every year and will get to zero. There’s no getting the damage done by petrol/diesel pollution down to zero though.

Given this is a forum on money though, I would like to stick on the other side of the balance sheet to your cobalt entry the following:
An estimated 385,000 people worldwide died prematurely in 2015 from air pollution caused by vehicle exhaust emissions, a US study found, which singled out diesel engines as the main culprit. Diesel vehicles were responsible for 47% of the deaths, it said, but the figure jumped as high as 66% in France, Germany, Italy and India where diesels make up a large proportion of cars on the road. (Source: https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/0227/1033098-diesel-link-to-nearly-50-of-premature-deaths-in-2015/).
Deaths from oil extraction and related wars in the Middle East can also go on the petrol/diesel side of that balance sheet.
 

losttheplot

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Congo’s miners dying to feed world’s hunger for electric cars
Exploited by Chinese firms, workers as young as nine risk their lives to feed the world’s growing hunger for cobalt. Christina Lamb reports from Kolwezi
Large amounts of cobalt are used in the desulphurisation of petrol. As far as I know this is not recycled. Cobalt from batteries can be recovered.
 

Leo

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Messages
11,548
5-6 years ago that was definitely an issue, but it certainly is not any more.
It's certainly improving but I'm thinking more in the 6+ age category, and what the impact an increasing awareness of the price of replacement batteries might have there. Right now, €10k will buy you a 7 year old BMW 3 Series, would you buy a 7 year old EV privately with no guarantee on range knowing that a dud battery will set you back €30k?

I'm not sure a manufacturer of petrol/diesel engines, who is staring down a potentially company-ending capital outlay to shift to electric is a reliable source of truth on something like this.
No doubt, but a few of the counter arguments to Mazda's statement that I've read seem to be assuming that EV users are almost exclusively using renewable energy. We're hoping to hit 55% by 2030, and we know what our record with targets is like. They're also assuming some pretty optimistic numbers for batter manufacturing. Long range batteries add hundreds of kilos to the weight of a car, carrying that weight for short journeys is inefficient, even with regenerative braking.

When calculating whether an EV is a sensible purchase now, I think we need to weigh today's reality more heavily than what we expect in 10 or more years.

It's also worth considering that Mazda are only considering CO2 emissions here, which ultimately have no affect on you/me day-to-day. What does affect us are air pollutants like NOx, particulate matter etc. which EVs cut directly to zero in urban areas.
Absolutely. I'd be in favour of banning private diesel vehicles from our cities.

No need to get rid of every petrol/diesel, EVs don't suit lots of usecases yet, but 40/50/60% would make a huge difference to air quality in urban areas.
Transport accounts for 43% of national energy demand, and private cars account for ~40% of that (the SEAI include aviation in the transport figures), EVs won't suit public transport or freight uses, so the target is more realistically some fraction of that 40%.
 
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