I thought the whole point of Bitcoin was to be a de-centralised currency, i.e. free from government control. It appears that the only country where it is somewhat operational is one where the government has ordered it to be so. Oh the irony!!
David McWilliams: "Bitcoin Betrayal"?
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
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Anyone is free to self custody and hold bitcoin wherever they are in the world. They're free to transact it across borders, they're free to use it for remittances, for trade finance. They're free to use it to buy goods and services. There are limitations in terms of extending network effect and yet despite what you say, network effect continues to grow. Despite what you suggest, there is no "government control" of bitcoin in El Salvador.
Bitcoin doesn't have an 'opinion' on who uses it or doesn't use it, who creates conditions that make it easier to use or otherwise. Nobody has to rely on a particular government to encourage its use but if they do, then all the better. There are also governments who have banned its use. Given that fiat money and conventional financial systems contain all of the worlds wealth, its obvious that interactions with the conventional system are relevant in terms of its ongoing roll-out and active use.
Bitcoin and its use continues to develop without anyone holding a gun to someone's head to make them use it - as is necessary in the case of every single fiat currency in existence. (and no, what the Duke has laid out above is not the reality - nobody is being forced to use bitcoin in El Salvador although it is officially one of two forms of recognized legal tender within the country).
Duke of Marmalade
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Faking quotes from me is all you can conjure up to support your viewpoint Duke?
I've corrected you twice on this. Looks like I'll have to do it a third time -> You're incorrect
...and by the way, I know you already knew this. All of this was discussed in the past here. In practical terms, nobody in El Salvador is being forced to accept bitcoin if they don't want to do so.
All bitcoin use is by choice - not by force as in the case of fiat money.
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Duke of Marmalade
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Ah! my bad for not giving the full quote:
So McD made the purely voluntary decision to accept btc - nothing at all to do with this law. I suppose I can expect my local McD to accept btc some time soon, surely they are not waiting until it is law.
Fourth time I have to correct you on this. In practical terms, nobody is being forced to accept bitcoin in El Salvador. I've been there a couple of times - I think I'm in a reasonably good position to confirm that.
Perhaps they like the idea and like to offer people the option, not because they're being forced to (as they're not) but because they want to and they also respect that its legal tender in the country? Perhaps they feel enabled in doing so from an accountancy point of view given that accounting practices relative to bitcoin are still being teased out in jurisdicitons worldwide? I know that gives you an ulcer but that's the reality.
I suppose you'll claim the same thing about McDonalds in Lugano in Switzerland? The city of Lugano is also progressing the use of bitcoin - and https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/mcdonalds-and-other-businesses-now-accept-bitcoin-payments-in-lugano-switzerland (McDonalds has equally participated in that initiative). And why wouldn't they? They've gone to the trouble of developing a seamless interface/point of sale system that integrates bitcoin payments. Now its easy for them to roll it out in other locations globally.
Duke of Marmalade
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"Gone to the trouble" - nothing to do with any law.
Your assertion is that businesses are being forced to receive bitcoin payments in El Salvador. That's not the case. McDonalds in Lugano is not being forced to receive bitcoin payments there either, yet it is an option.
That McD Bitcoin option looks really cool. Now instead of taping my card at the self-service kiosk, I can simply print off a QR code at the same self-service kiosk, queue at the counter & wait for a staff member who then does some entry into a pos device. I open an app on my phone and scan the QR code too (so love doing this!) and complete the payment. This is really going to solve a lot of problems for me as I find it so cumbersome to tap my card and love spending entra time waiting for "fast" food.
So the two of you have to make stuff up now to support your viewpoint?
I've used those self-service kiosks many times. It's seamless and not as you describe.
As shown here, the option to pay via bitcoin appears alongside the option to pay via credit card. You have to scan an on-screen QR code - that's it. There may be 1 second in the difference between card payment and bitcoin lightning wallet payment.
There is no 'printing off a QR code'
There is no 'queuing at the counter & waiting for a staff member who then does some entry into a pos device'.
Why would you start making stuff up?....unless...
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time to plan
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Do you think tulips are infinite?Dated argument and one that has been long since outed as ill-fitting. The tulip bubble was one boom 'n bust...not a series of boom n bust cycles. In terms of tulips being a store of value, they could never be seeing as they're not finite..
Ah, so bitcoin is a 'scam'?
Here's ChatGPT on that assertion -> "No, Bitcoin is not a scam. Bitcoin is a legitimate and innovative form of digital currency that has gained significant attention and adoption since its inception. It has been used for various purposes, including as a store of value, a medium of exchange, and an investment asset."
Pretends? I'm the farthest thing from an art buff but what you're setting out is that if sufficient people assign value to something and that assignation endures, it has value. You can dislike that outcome (hence your use of 'pretends') but so it is.
It is in fact your analogy that is entirely flawed in this instance. You speak of intrinsic value and such. Can you solve the double spend problem with your nasal hair? Can you transact your nasal hair digitally around the world in near real time? Bitcoin is almost perfectly finite (yes, its users could support a move to rise the cap in the same way as they could all choose to shoot themselves in the face). Gold has finite properties (albeit that they still keep finding the stuff and as the price of it goes up, there's an incentive to find more of it). You can't transact value in the form of gold digitally no more than your nasal hair.
Secondly, on the 'anyone in crypto is a fool' notion, as has been pointed out here many times Bitcoin ≠ Crypto. Most crypto projects will vaporize. Within crypto, you have scammers who haven't the least bit of interest in decentralized technology and are simply grifting and capitalizing on ignorance and hype related to a new technology. This has happened with other technologies in the past - albeit it's amplified in this instance given crypto is adjacent to money and money-like use cases.
This grift is being aided and supported by those who have taken the position that we won't apply any form of regulation because to do so is to give the sector legitimacy. It's easily verifiable that many good actors in the space have been lobbying for effective regulation (that doesn't attempt to destroy any such innovation) for a number of years already. Millions of people have opted to participate in these markets. They're worthy of basic protections and to deny that is a failure. You can't claim to be a champion of the little guy and then say do NOT regulate to stamp out fraudsters/curb grift.
You also have projects that started out in good faith but founders have now been drawn off course due to the $. With their heads turned, their projects are very imperfectly decentralized...although they may find use cases in the middle ground between centralized and decentralized.
There will still be projects in "crypto" that ultimately succeed but I would imagine those projects to represent a handful of the numerous projects that are in existence today. Having said all that, circling back, bitcoin ≠ crypto.
ChatGPT on whether Bitcoin is a bubble ->
"Whether or not Bitcoin is considered a bubble is a subject of ongoing debate and largely depends on one's perspective."
So you're opposed to the idea of it, then its a bubble. You recognize the innovation in it, it's not. How many years ago was it that you said that you were astounded by bitcoin's resilience? Onward we go.
Are you saying that there is a specific number of tulips in the World? Do you know what this number is? Can you point me to where that number is documented?
Paul Krugman also dismissed bitcoin when it was $7 and it's up over 365,999% since then.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/bitcoin-up-365999-since-krugman-dismissed-it-at-$7
Personally I love bitcoin and I'm extremely bullish on it long term and I purchase every single week regardless of price.
I've been though 2 cycles and can stomach the volatility.
The narrative has changed a lot of the last few years and its gone from being associated with criminals, money laundereers, darknet markets etc to having multiple giant institutions lining up to get a spot ETF approved. (Most darknet markets dont even accept bitcoin anymore, they only accept Monero)
If you look at the adoption rate, the number of non-0 adddresses, the strength of the network and several other verifyable data points, it's very exciting.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/bitcoin-up-365999-since-krugman-dismissed-it-at-$7
Personally I love bitcoin and I'm extremely bullish on it long term and I purchase every single week regardless of price.
I've been though 2 cycles and can stomach the volatility.
The narrative has changed a lot of the last few years and its gone from being associated with criminals, money laundereers, darknet markets etc to having multiple giant institutions lining up to get a spot ETF approved. (Most darknet markets dont even accept bitcoin anymore, they only accept Monero)
If you look at the adoption rate, the number of non-0 adddresses, the strength of the network and several other verifyable data points, it's very exciting.
time to plan
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No. I am saying they are finite and not infinite. You said:
So are tulips finite or infinite?
The "Nobel Laureate" has been wrong more than once
He doesn't like bitcoin because it doesn't fall in line with Keynesian economics
time to plan
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I don't know how many there are. I know they are finite.Bitcoin capped at 21 million.
Tulips uncapped and currently at how many?
You brought up tulips - you can defend it by enlightening us on how many there are.
Do you think tulips are finite or infinite?
Duke of Marmalade
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To paraphrase Lincoln. A NL can be wrong some of the time but they can't all be wrong at once. There isn't a NL or any senior economist for that matter who thinks btc makes any sense.
It doesn't make sense but yet it's the best performing asset of the last decade in FIAT terms, go figure.....