Bank of Ireland BoI Staff on fixed rates who are not getting their trackers back

Discussion in 'Tracker Redress' started by TMH2017, 16 Nov 2017.

  1. Rossie

    Rossie Registered User

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    Hi all. I wrote and then emailed a letter to all the members of the Finance Committee, and copied our local TDs. A couple of the members of the Committee have since replied to say BOI is in again before them shortly, and they will raise our case and ask the question. The more of us who have written to the Committee before then, the better? Email details are on oireachtas.ie
     
  2. TMH2017

    TMH2017 Frequent Poster

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    thanks @Rossie, I will be doing the same (& have had communication with some of the members previously on this)-

    Key argument I will be highlighting is fact internal system from day 1 had all customers in the 2 yr staff fixed rolling to tracker at end of fixed period - this was known to all staff and could be checked on the system. On this basis, as the value of the tracker rose across the term of the fixed period there was no requirement/need to switch to a tracker as the internal system confirmed we would roll to same. This was confirmed in the Oct '08 communication but then subsequently rescinded in Nov '08 with the internal system changed with a "product switch" put through on all 2 year staff fixed accounts but no MFA signed by myself or anyone else. The BOI CEO at the last finance committee would have talked about the customer journey in terms of expectations and no. of times a standard customer would switch across a mortgage term. All these arguments would support our case but as yet BOI have chosen to ignore them.
     
  3. Strandski10

    Strandski10 Registered User

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    I have contacted the members of the Finance Committee also (have not had any responses yet) but will update once get some traction. TMH2017 your point above is the key issue now. That is what we have to focus in on. BTW have many signed up to the email address you set up?
     
  4. dublin dude

    dublin dude Registered User

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    Sorry the (Insite) image still wont upload as the file is too big to process. If I can find another way to copy it in here, I will try again later.
     
  5. dublin dude

    dublin dude Registered User

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    Here's a pdf / pic of the Insite communication of 9.10.2008 (ignore the highlighted print date of 27.11.2008). I suspected that the bank would remove this post from Insite once the storm blew up and thats exactly what they did).
     

    Attached Files:

  6. TMH2017

    TMH2017 Frequent Poster

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    Thanks @dublindude, very interesting that you are included in the redress scheme with same facts as rest of us on this thread - can only think this an error on banks behalf vs. approach taken for rest of us but happy that you have got the right result (maybe on basis that you had trackers on other products and bank linked these).
    Believe on the bank approach on our cohort is that they don't believe we were ever promised a tracker on day 1 and should have had no expectation of same (obviously ignoring the oct 2008 insite notice and internal system) , other 2 cohorts who have got trackers back are those who had tracker language in offer letter day 1 (and as such a contractual right) and those who did not have tracker language in original offer letter but had a tracker at some stage (even just for one month - no contractual right but provided at "goodwill" of Bank on consumer protection grounds) with our cohort (same product / information / systems) excluded.
     
  7. Rossie

    Rossie Registered User

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    DublinDude. Thanks very much for your detailed post and the very best of luck with your appeal. I find your position very interesting. I wrote back to BOI when they confirmed that we were not included, and asked two very closed and pointed questions: 1. was our mortage ever set to roll to tracker on any BOI system in 2008; and 2. was everyone in the same situation as us being treated the same.

    On the first, they replied that internal systems do not convey any contractual entitlement and that we did not at any stage have a contractual entitlement. But we are not saying we did; we are saying that the Bank told us we would roll and that, along with the systems set up, raised a very legitimate expectation. On the second question - are we all being treated the same, they replied "...I can confirm that in the interest of fairness the Bank is applying the same principles across all cases...".

    But your position DublinDude indicates that they are not applying the same principles to customers in identical positions. And this is really important in getting a better outcome for the 200 or so of us who are left. Would you be able to write to the Finance Committte, advising them of what you outlined above, in the same way you have advised us above? Joan Burton and Paul Murphy have both replied to me personally on my letter to the Finance Committee; the other members of the Finance Committee have acknowledged it; and all have said they will raise this matter with BOI when they are next in in front of them. If they could cite your case specifically when asking about ours, and ask why your case is different to ours, that could be very powerful. Thanks for any support you can provide.
     
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  8. dublin dude

    dublin dude Registered User

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    Just checked the redress letter that I received in Dec 2017. Under the heading 'How we got things wrong?' the bank have stated the following:
    In our review, we found that when you moved from a tracker rate to the staff non-standard variable rate and then a fixed rate, we failed to provide you with sufficient clarity as to what would happen at the end of that fixed rate and the language used by us in communications to you may have been confusing or misleading.

    So it seems clear that the bank / somebody conducting the review thought that I was on a tracker initially. I also found a letter from the CRU that I had forgotten about that issued in early Jan 2007 (about 3 weeks after drawdown) apologising 'because the interest rate on your account has been incorrect since the account was drawndown....' and confirming that an interest adjustment / refund had been made due to an overcharge. I'm now wondering if my account was incorrectly coded internally as a tracker for some very short period at / after drawdown but I would never have had sight of this nor been aware of it? I will ask a friend / colleague to see if they can check the records. I'm also waiting for a response to a data request from the tracker redress team that will hopefully show a complete product history on the account (I have also asked for all internal notes on mortgagelink) before submitting my appeal. The redress letter gives a comprehensive rate history but not a product history.

    I would be reluctant to put my name / case in the public domain or on a Dail committee record for a number of reasons and certainly not before my appeal is concluded. The Bank could still hurt me in numerous other ways that I wont outline here so I just cant afford to draw their ire. If there is some way to anonymise my case / details then maybe, although I definitely wont be engaging with the likes of J Burton (the scourge of all pensioner classes) or P Murphy whose behaviour I have a complete disregard for - but those are just personal prejudices. I am sure there are other members of the finance committee that are honourable politicians.

    If anything else useful emerges from my data request and appeal I'll post the details here. I am anecdotally aware of other (former) colleagues that received redress and that hadnt even been aware they they were in scope for it ! So I am all the more baffled that the Bank is still holding out against this cohort given the overall scale of the redress programme it seems incredibly small-minded and not at all in keeping with the new values / ethos being articulated by the new CEO. Maybe the more things change the more they stay the same !
    Keep fighting your case. In both the court of public opinion and a court of law you definitely have a case - or about 200 of them.
     
  9. Rossie

    Rossie Registered User

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    Thanks DublinDude. Completely understood and apologies for putting you in the difficult position of having to say no. Everyone here understands how difficult it is to be enagaged in a dispute with your mortgage provider, made all the more stressful if they are your currrent (or former) employer. Thinking about it a bit more anyway, citing your case is not necessary provided the Finance Committee ask the right question i.e. "can you confirm that all staff customers who are in this cohort are being treated equally?". If the person / persons batting for BOI that day are familiar with your case (and they should be if they are before the Committee) then how can they confirm? For whatever reason, rightly or wrongly, your case is being treated differently and when they replied to me they did "confirm that in the interest of fairness the Bank is applying the same principles across all cases". Like you, if I learn anything new or of interest to the wider group, I will post here. And again, good luck with your appeal.
     
  10. 2006mortgage

    2006mortgage Registered User

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    Hi, I’ll email the address quoted above with details. I didn’t know about the email address. I have spoken to Pairaic Kissane a few times and plan to take my case to him now. I think we need to form a group on this.
     
  11. Strandski10

    Strandski10 Registered User

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    2006Mortgage - I agree re forming a group. It may be our best chance. If anyone who hasn't emailed their details to TMH2017's email account boistafftracker@gmail com please do so as our strength will be in numbers.
    Our CEO is before the Finance Committee this Thursday morning at 9.30a.m.
    Fingers crossed the members will bring up our case strongly.
     
  12. 2006mortgage

    2006mortgage Registered User

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    Hi, Any update from the Finance Committee?
     
  13. M123@6

    M123@6 Registered User

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    The Irish Times posted an article today about the finance committee meeting. seems like the bank is not moving on their original viewpoint.
     
  14. todo

    todo Frequent Poster

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    Its seem that Bank of Ireland feel this is done and dusted. The only hope now is to apply pressure to central bank some how.

    The other option is the courts.

    Today they didn't want to discuss the reason the mortgage type was changed on the 11 Nov 2008.

    Anyone who checked the system before this date, would have a reasonable expectation to return to a tracker. If BOI had respected the CPC there should have been full disclosure of what they were doing and give those folks a chance to move to a different lender who may have offered them a tracker.
     
  15. Rossie

    Rossie Registered User

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    Hi all. I think the outcome from the recent finance committee is as good as we could have hoped for? If BOI are ever to agree that we should be included for redress, they are not going to do so as they sit in front of the Finance Committee, in person and on live TV. It has now been made clear that while BOI management think their review is near complete, c. 200 staff don't agree; and we also got some good press coverage - thank you, Irish Times.

    In terms of further actions, I understand that the Finance Committee cannot deal with individual queries, but our elected representatives can, and it is in fact their job to lobby for us, if they support our position. So, we continue to write to our local TDs. It is not enough for them to ask once; they should ask and ask and ask again. We can write to the Central Bank at code@centralbank.ie and ask them to confirm if their view aligns with that of BOI, and to outline why. For those of us who have open cases with the FSO or who have yet to take their case to the FSO, this is more critical than ever ever, and if anyone here in that position can post any updates they receive from the FSO that will be helpful. We can't go to the FSO again, but I know some people on here have files open with them and they provided evidence that we did not have when we went to the FSO several years ago now. Finally, we can group together and / or seek the advice of Padraic Kissane. I know we will reach out to Padraic now. We hadn't to date as we had hoped it would get resolved as part of the wider review.

    I haven't read many of the other threads on Tracker Mortgages. I don't have time and each cohort's circumstances are so diffferent. However, of the ones I have read where they have been successful, the common trait has been their perseverance. They kept going back, and they kept opening up new fronts when old ones were closed off. And we have to do the same. At the start of this review, all the banks said there was "nothing to see here", and that they had acted correctly. And look what has been achieved since then? This post has somehow turned into a call to arms, but we have nothing to lose except our variable rate mortgages!
     
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  16. TMH2017

    TMH2017 Frequent Poster

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    Agree wholeheartedly with this - from my own perspective Padraic is reviewing my letter from BOI so hopefully hear from him soon and the more people that can form a group on this the better (please email boistafftracker@gmail). Other options include potential legal action (as a group) noting there was a recent legal case in favour of customer where an email was considered part of the contract even though it was not written in the Offer Letter.
     
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  17. Rossie

    Rossie Registered User

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    Hi all. Just an update in terms of correspondence. I wrote to the Central Bank and received the following reply:

    The Central Bank’s Tracker Examination is focused on ensuring that lenders provide fair outcomes for all customers impacted by tracker related failings both from a contractual and transparency perspective. The Central Bank does not have a statutory role in investigating individual consumer complaints, however we use any information that we receive directly from consumers to guide the scope of our broader supervisory work.

    The Central Bank is not in a position to comment on individual firm’s supervisory engagement. However, in order to assist tracker customers as much as we can, in very limited circumstances, we have provided clarity on some issues where it is possible to do so. During our most recent appearance before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach on 10 May 2018, the Central Bank of Ireland set out that following consideration of this particular staff issue, that it does not propose to take any further action.

    We have engaged with Padraic Kissane and he is to revert to us with any update he might have by the end of August.

    I continue to write to our local TDs and the Chairman of the Finance Committee (sending another letter this evening).

    And we can't go to the FSO again so I'd be keen to know if anyone else on here has heard anything from them since BOI appeared before the Committee at the start of July. They should be starting to send comms now, I would have thought.

    Thanks all.
     
  18. M123@6

    M123@6 Registered User

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    Hi all, I received the following reply from the FSO:

    "The Bank (as in BOI) responded by letter and detailed that the mortgage loan account was not within scope of the examination, that the account had not been identified as impacted as yet, but that the examination was ongoing, with Central Bank Assurance work being completed.

    Therefore, having considered the matter at length, I have come to the view that the best way of ensuring that this office has all of the necessary information to deal with this complaint is to await the outcome of the examination and the conclusion of the central bank Assurance work. For this reason, it is necessary to place this complaint on hold pending confirmation of the impact, if any, of the examination on the mortgage loan account."

    It will.be interesting to see what the FSO and CB think of the recent case where emails were considered part of the contract albeit not detailed in the offer letter.

    If you think Paraic wants a copy of this letter just let me know and ill email it.

    Thanks
     
  19. Rossie

    Rossie Registered User

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    Thanks both, for sharing those letters. Messages are still very mixed? But hopefully that means there is still hope? It looks like the matter is still being debated, but maybe not for much longer, so we just need to keep asking the Committee and our elected reps to advocate strongly for us.
     
  20. TMH2017

    TMH2017 Frequent Poster

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    thanks for all the updates - not to sound negative but looks like CB has agreed with BOI's view on our cohort , that's the vibe I am getting internally in BOI from discussions with a few people.
    I think the FSO is just waiting for the final letter from CB before starting the process on o/s FSO complaints on this issue and who knows how they will come out on this topic - I am one who has gone to FSO previously so only hope is the political/publicity route in the short term to keep this in the public eye i.e. good to see continued questions post the results re this issue - otherwise for those who have gone to FSO looks like legal route may be only option although PK is still reviewing my response letter from BOI at present.