Bank of Ireland BoI Staff on fixed rates who are not getting their trackers back

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TMH2017

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thanks for the update , agree with your view (used very selective parts of communication to suit their argument and anything else was an "error" in my letter back) and this goes against BOI CEO comments to Finance committee considering that customers switch mortgage frequently (this cohort never did because we believed along with other 1800 staff that we would roll to tracker) and giving customers the bounce of the ball in such circumstances (as they have done with other 1800 staff),

Am interested in the 22 Dec 2006 Insite notice - did this specifically relate to the 2 year fixed rate staff product ? Do you have a copy of this ?
 

TMH2017

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found this re the insite notice - only have pg 2 & 3 but pretty clear on 2 year fixed rate product that "Staff will be advised of their rollover options a number of weeks prior to the expiry of the fixed rate term" which they did in Oct 2008 and then they "changed their minds" a few weeks later when it suited them
 

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M123@6

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I submitted a complaint to BOI which was rejected and then went to the FSO. From the wording of the letter, it seems the FSO just wants confirmation from the bank whether I am or am not in scope for the mortgage project.

It does not seem that the FSO are going to review any of my paperwork or what the bank posted on insite where they stated that trackers would be offered. It seems very unusual for me that the FSO are just going to take the banks word that they are right without a full investigation.
 

Rossie

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Hi all. Got our official "you're not included" today. It makes no reference to the insite communication whatsoever. Focuses very much on the legality of the mortgage docs, with no acknowledgement of the expectations raised in that notice. Don't know where to take this next??? If indeed there is anywhere??? The CB is not progressing it; we had already taken it to the Ombudsman and they had not adjudicated in our favour and will not look at it again. We could go to Padraig Kissane, but other than to those 2 bodies, to whom can he appeal it? I think the only other tack could be to focus on the fact that we were actually all set to roll to trackers on the system and that some of us saw that. I know some people here said that they had seen that on their account?
 

TMH2017

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@Rossie there was a Product Switch on my account on 10/11/2008 for which I did not sign any MFA/documentation for - This was BOI switching product type from fixed roll to tracker to fixed roll to variable - I have a print out of this.
Did the FSO say categorically they will not look at your case again - I thought they may look at cases again given that all their previous decisions were very bank friendly ?
 

TMH2017

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boistafftracker@gmail.com

All - I am trying to gauge interest in forming a group to take this forward given current situation. If interested can you confirm the following to the above email address:
- that you were on the staff 2 year fixed & have not received redress from BOI
- whether you have gone to FSO as yet
- confirm whether you are current or ex staff

Thanks
 

Rossie

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Yes. It was taking BOI so long to tell us if we were in scope of the current investigation that I complained about that to the FSO. I referenced our earlier (unsuccessful) case in that letter and as part of their response they stated that they would not reconsider our case as it had already been adjudicated on by them. But that shouldn't stop others who have not yet complained?

Re your questions, yes we were on the fixed rate; yes we went to the FSO; and yes, current staff. I would take it further but I think we'd need a new strategy and that's why I'm interested in the screenshots you mention above, and I recall others mentioning they knew some people in the same boat who actually did get redress i.e. were treated differently. This is information that key decision makers may not have had the benefit of considering. But I have no evidence of either.

The CB has said no: the FSO has said no (to us at least); and there's no point in going to law on the docs alone.
 

Strandski10

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TMH2017 - happy to sign up to the email, will send you separate email to the account now. In response to your questions, Yes, No and Current.

All - I believe that the Bank are due back in front of the Finance Committee in the next couple of weeks and that Pearse Doherty is aware of an ex BoI staff member who is in the exact same situation as us here (this ex staff member has provided all of the documentation to him and from what I understand has all the emails, communications etc.). I am going to email Pearse and outline that I am in the same position and that there is a cohort of similar current/ex staff in the same boat. I do think that it would be useful if more of us on here do likewise and email him to show that there is a group of us.
 

TMH2017

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Agree this would be bizarre that the FSO could find in your favour with new evidence (i.e. the screen shots of account being moved) & a more consumer protection ethos and those who have previously went to FSO (& got a no) would be prevented from seeking/achieving redress with the exact same circumstances - agree this point needs to be publicised more
 

Rossie

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Thanks all, for your replies. I will write to Pearse Doherty and cc all of our elected reps at the same time. I'm glad to hear that the relevant screenshots are bring shared with the FSO. It all goes to supporting that expectation that was raised. Does anyone know how many of us there are??? Is it 1,800?
 

TMH2017

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my understanding is that total amount of staff/ex staff that were on the 2 year fixed was c. 1850/2000 and those deemed not impacted is a smaller subset of that number - maybe fewer than 200
 

TMH2017

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thanks @Rossie, I will be doing the same (& have had communication with some of the members previously on this)-

Key argument I will be highlighting is fact internal system from day 1 had all customers in the 2 yr staff fixed rolling to tracker at end of fixed period - this was known to all staff and could be checked on the system. On this basis, as the value of the tracker rose across the term of the fixed period there was no requirement/need to switch to a tracker as the internal system confirmed we would roll to same. This was confirmed in the Oct '08 communication but then subsequently rescinded in Nov '08 with the internal system changed with a "product switch" put through on all 2 year staff fixed accounts but no MFA signed by myself or anyone else. The BOI CEO at the last finance committee would have talked about the customer journey in terms of expectations and no. of times a standard customer would switch across a mortgage term. All these arguments would support our case but as yet BOI have chosen to ignore them.
 

dublin dude

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Here's a pdf / pic of the Insite communication of 9.10.2008 (ignore the highlighted print date of 27.11.2008). I suspected that the bank would remove this post from Insite once the storm blew up and thats exactly what they did).
 

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TMH2017

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Thanks @dublindude, very interesting that you are included in the redress scheme with same facts as rest of us on this thread - can only think this an error on banks behalf vs. approach taken for rest of us but happy that you have got the right result (maybe on basis that you had trackers on other products and bank linked these).
Believe on the bank approach on our cohort is that they don't believe we were ever promised a tracker on day 1 and should have had no expectation of same (obviously ignoring the oct 2008 insite notice and internal system) , other 2 cohorts who have got trackers back are those who had tracker language in offer letter day 1 (and as such a contractual right) and those who did not have tracker language in original offer letter but had a tracker at some stage (even just for one month - no contractual right but provided at "goodwill" of Bank on consumer protection grounds) with our cohort (same product / information / systems) excluded.
 

Rossie

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DublinDude. Thanks very much for your detailed post and the very best of luck with your appeal. I find your position very interesting. I wrote back to BOI when they confirmed that we were not included, and asked two very closed and pointed questions: 1. was our mortage ever set to roll to tracker on any BOI system in 2008; and 2. was everyone in the same situation as us being treated the same.

On the first, they replied that internal systems do not convey any contractual entitlement and that we did not at any stage have a contractual entitlement. But we are not saying we did; we are saying that the Bank told us we would roll and that, along with the systems set up, raised a very legitimate expectation. On the second question - are we all being treated the same, they replied "...I can confirm that in the interest of fairness the Bank is applying the same principles across all cases...".

But your position DublinDude indicates that they are not applying the same principles to customers in identical positions. And this is really important in getting a better outcome for the 200 or so of us who are left. Would you be able to write to the Finance Committte, advising them of what you outlined above, in the same way you have advised us above? Joan Burton and Paul Murphy have both replied to me personally on my letter to the Finance Committee; the other members of the Finance Committee have acknowledged it; and all have said they will raise this matter with BOI when they are next in in front of them. If they could cite your case specifically when asking about ours, and ask why your case is different to ours, that could be very powerful. Thanks for any support you can provide.
 

dublin dude

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Just checked the redress letter that I received in Dec 2017. Under the heading 'How we got things wrong?' the bank have stated the following:
In our review, we found that when you moved from a tracker rate to the staff non-standard variable rate and then a fixed rate, we failed to provide you with sufficient clarity as to what would happen at the end of that fixed rate and the language used by us in communications to you may have been confusing or misleading.

So it seems clear that the bank / somebody conducting the review thought that I was on a tracker initially. I also found a letter from the CRU that I had forgotten about that issued in early Jan 2007 (about 3 weeks after drawdown) apologising 'because the interest rate on your account has been incorrect since the account was drawndown....' and confirming that an interest adjustment / refund had been made due to an overcharge. I'm now wondering if my account was incorrectly coded internally as a tracker for some very short period at / after drawdown but I would never have had sight of this nor been aware of it? I will ask a friend / colleague to see if they can check the records. I'm also waiting for a response to a data request from the tracker redress team that will hopefully show a complete product history on the account (I have also asked for all internal notes on mortgagelink) before submitting my appeal. The redress letter gives a comprehensive rate history but not a product history.

I would be reluctant to put my name / case in the public domain or on a Dail committee record for a number of reasons and certainly not before my appeal is concluded. The Bank could still hurt me in numerous other ways that I wont outline here so I just cant afford to draw their ire. If there is some way to anonymise my case / details then maybe, although I definitely wont be engaging with the likes of J Burton (the scourge of all pensioner classes) or P Murphy whose behaviour I have a complete disregard for - but those are just personal prejudices. I am sure there are other members of the finance committee that are honourable politicians.

If anything else useful emerges from my data request and appeal I'll post the details here. I am anecdotally aware of other (former) colleagues that received redress and that hadnt even been aware they they were in scope for it ! So I am all the more baffled that the Bank is still holding out against this cohort given the overall scale of the redress programme it seems incredibly small-minded and not at all in keeping with the new values / ethos being articulated by the new CEO. Maybe the more things change the more they stay the same !
Keep fighting your case. In both the court of public opinion and a court of law you definitely have a case - or about 200 of them.
 

Rossie

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Thanks DublinDude. Completely understood and apologies for putting you in the difficult position of having to say no. Everyone here understands how difficult it is to be enagaged in a dispute with your mortgage provider, made all the more stressful if they are your currrent (or former) employer. Thinking about it a bit more anyway, citing your case is not necessary provided the Finance Committee ask the right question i.e. "can you confirm that all staff customers who are in this cohort are being treated equally?". If the person / persons batting for BOI that day are familiar with your case (and they should be if they are before the Committee) then how can they confirm? For whatever reason, rightly or wrongly, your case is being treated differently and when they replied to me they did "confirm that in the interest of fairness the Bank is applying the same principles across all cases". Like you, if I learn anything new or of interest to the wider group, I will post here. And again, good luck with your appeal.
 

2006mortgage

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Hi, I’ll email the address quoted above with details. I didn’t know about the email address. I have spoken to Pairaic Kissane a few times and plan to take my case to him now. I think we need to form a group on this.
 
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