An unsuitable President ? And the failure of mainstream politics

[Sister Sara]

@Persia The Civil War ended over a 100yrs ago. Leo Varadkar declared civil war politics with Fianna Fail over with the 2020 coalition.

Both FF and FG have been in effective coalition for almost a decade, including the Supply and Confidence arrangements.

As you say, they are similar in nature.

They should do the honourable thing and merge on an All-Ireland basis with the SDLP, or those members of SDLP willing to do so.

Their declining support has been is evident over the long-term. There is now a vacuum in Irish politics.

A new, All-Ireland centrist party could rejuvenate the centre and see off the challenge from Sinn Fein.

 

[arbitron]

There is now a vacuum in Irish politics.

A new, All-Ireland centrist party could rejuvenate the centre and see off the challenge from Sinn Fein.

The centre can move over time and can look different depending on where you are in the world. People can use the same language but mean different things.

On immigration for example, many fiscal conservatives favour keeping the numbers high as they believe it makes markets more competitive and drive growth. Leftists would agree, but usually for different reasons. That is why we have to be careful about saying "X party is left and Y party is right" when we may be talking about some mixture of their manifesto, their actions, their motivations, some of which can be nuanced and even seem contradictory. Many modern parties are mixed and pragmatic rather than holding to a single ideology across every area.

I often think of a friend of mine who is a conservative Tory. She will tell you with a straight face that Thatcher was one of the first great environmentalists in the UK because she shut down the coal mines. She thinks that makes Thatcher "left" on the environment. People can view things in unusual ways.

Is an Irish centrist party right down the middle on everything? Or could you have a centrist part that is slightly left economically and slightly right socially? And then a competing one that is economically conservative but socially liberal?

Because some people see FF and FG as that duo already.

What would the policies of a new centrist party look like?

 

[Marsupial]

They should do the honourable thing and merge on an All-Ireland basis with the SDLP, or those members of SDLP willing to do so.

Logic would suggest to me that a Party with the words "Social Democratic" and "Labour" in its title is about as likely to merge with FF/FG as you are to vote for the Monster Raving Loony party in the next elections! But then I'm nowhere near as unpredictable as you appear to be!

 

[redstar]

The left/right/centre/centre-left/centre-right whatever yer havin' yerself etc etc.. labels don't appear to neatly sit with FF or FG.

I don't find them helpful at all. Judge them on their actions. Low Corporation taxes, reduced VAT for restaurants, bailouts for banks, incentives for builders/developers, high personal taxes on a narrow base, fuel supports, social welfare, .

Its a mixed bag of left and right.

I remember when FF positioned themselves as the party of the workin man, and small farmers, while the brown-envelopes were taken from their pals and income tax was 65% for many - remember the PAYE marches?.

Pragmatic or populist maybe?

 

[Leo]

Absolutely. Just strange that there is nothing in media, academia, etc. being offered to back that up.

Much of those are so left that centre looks far right!

 

[Sister Sara]

What would the policies of a new centrist party look like?

Nothing radical, pretty much along the lines as both FF/FG and SDLP now. There is little more than a hairs breadth difference between most political parties - social justice, economic freedom, environmentally friendly, etc.

They are all headlines that most political parties will fall under, the differences being whether or not they are in power or in opposition the measures they will support/oppose.

They real point is, the brand FF, FG and SDLP are in decline over the long-term. FF, FG have shown that as ruling parties since, forever, that whether in opposition or power, or in coalition, they can work together.

Quite simply, and this is just my opinion, the electorate is disenchanted with the phony performance of one large 'coalition' party acting as a two separate parties.

It was the leader of FG, Leo Varadkar that declared civil war politics was over. I don't think anyone disputes this? So what is stopping them merging and giving an impetus to electorate to perhaps re-engage?
Its only their ego's, the party traditionalists and dynasty's that have not grasped that the political sands are shifting quickly from under their feet.

 

[Sister Sara]

Logic would suggest to me that a Party with the words "Social Democratic" and "Labour" in its title is about as likely to merge with FF/FG as you are to vote for the Monster Raving Loony party in the next elections! But then I'm nowhere near as clever as you are.

Yes, there are always those resistant to change, no matter how inevitable it is. Typically traditionalists, and those whose political dynasty is built upon the party name.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce58lkz13dgo?quot

I have no doubt that there are others working away at trying to make it happen. Whether they succeed or not is another thing.

The FF-SDLP partnership: 'The last thing we want is for it to be a Fianna Fáil canvas'

It’s about “support from the background”, a bit of logistics, TD Paul McAuliffe told The Journal.

www.thejournal.ie

 

[arbitron]

Much of those are so left that centre looks far right!

Are you talking about the sources? The Telegraph and The Times of London also refer to FF and FG as centrist/centre-right.

This morning I was listening to a podcast with William Hague, former Tory leader, who said:

"It shows you how much politics has changed in the last 25 years that I was on the eurosceptic end of things then, and my opinions have never changed, but I'm now regarded as a pro-European centrist. It's just the whole political spectrum has moved in that 25 years."

 

[cremeegg]

Sinn Fein were founded as a ethno-nationalist Party

SF are a Republican Party, (spare me the history on Arthur Griffith and pre 1918 SF, I know) the basic aim of republicanism is to 'unite Catholic Protestant and Dissenter in the common name of Irishman'

 

[cremeegg]

At the moment people are moving towards an completely illogical mix of populism and far left politics, as can be seem by the support for PBP and Sinn Fein. That vote can just as easily swing to a mix of populism and the far right.

Angry people who hate the establishment can flip from far left to far right easily. They are not very numerous in Ireland, a few PBP voters and the type that try to burn asylum centres, those ones may well not vote.

SF toyed with these people for a while, but for many years now have sought to project a 'nice people' image. Mary Lou is a 'nice' woman from a 'nice' part of Dublin. CC interestingly doesn't carry a handbag, doesn't make the effort to dress 'nicely' and doesn't come from a 'nice' part of anywhere. The voters were happy to accept that.

There is a large cohort of socially concerned, environmentally aware, economically illiterate, though otherwise well educated, voters who were happy to vote for CC. They are disillusioned with FF and FG, and nothing they saw in this Presidential election will have changed that view.

The country will survive the failure of mainstream politics in this Presidential election, CC may even turn out to be a successful president, she has all the qualifications, I hope her choices on when to speak out will be more judicious when she is President.

We may not survive the failure of mainstream politics through many more GEs.

 

[Leo]

Are you talking about the sources? The Telegraph and The Times of London also refer to FF and FG as centrist/centre-right.

No, don't often read those so I've no idea whether they base their labelling on actual policy or the partys' own description.

 

[lff12]

I think it was a mistake by FG not allowing Steen and Sheridan onto the ballot

This was neither the decision of FG or its intent. The whip was applied simply to prevent FG reps from nominating third party candidates, most of whom had diametrically opposed views and policies to that of the party and would have brought it into disrepute.
In any case, FG have only 1/4 of all the seats on both councils and the Oireachtas, so there was still 75% of those institutions to nominate candidates which they did not do.
Why not is simple: CC was nominated by the 37% of the houses on the opposition. FG and FF each have half the council seats and about 43% of the remaining Dail seats. Some of the ex party independents (eg Healy Raes and others) rolled in behind FG's pick. This left less than 1/4 of remaining councillors and Oireachtas members to vote for alternatives. Because about 3/4 of all elected reps had "their own" picks they were under no obligation to then nominate another candidate from a diametrically opposed position. Reps elected to represent the views of one particular party are under no obligation whatsoever to vote for people with policies outside of their positions. So suggest otherwise isn't "democracy" its just gaslighting.

I watched the Fingal session for potential reps so you don't have to. Both candidates were treated with respect and given lots of time to set out their stalls. I noticed that Steen herself was only able to get 3 votes, largely because aside from not being aligned in terms of social policies with the majority of councillors, but also because she shot herself in the foot in her closing pitch by accusing the council of calling her names and insulting her, which was simply factually untrue. Sheridan was stuck behind the fact that almost all the "mainstream" parties already had a candidate in the nomination process and were not going to pick a second candidate. Its no surprise whatsoever that both legal cases that went to the courts failed entirely.

But there was also a third reason why many of the candidates didn't get nominations: many of them were running on "culture war" issues that would have turned the presidential campaign into a relentless set of attacks and defences on minority groups, and nobody in politics was or is interested in indulging that.

 

[lff12]

Yes but it wasn't fg that was preventing steen getting on the ballot, the independent senators like Michael mcdowell and Gérard craughwell i think also failed to nominate her. Incredibly mcdowell said he was afraid she might win that was the reason. I wonder were they jealous of her or something because maybe mcdowell secretly wanted to run himself but thought he wouldn't be elected but then he didn't want steen get elected even though she was very similar to him politically

That's a misinterpretation of what he wrote - he said that he did not want to nominate a candidate whose views he diametrically disagreed with in case they might win. He didn't with hold a nomination from her: he was never under any obligation to nominate her, he did not find common ground and therefore did not offer his support. In the same way, opposition parties are not obliged to vote for government policies, motions, bills or nominations, and vice verse. If they do happen to do so its because they agree with them.

 

[lff12]

Steen got 4 votes.

I thought she got only 3 - the 2x Aontu councillors and one independent from Swords. That's a good measure of where she was in terms of popular support. I mean even the heavily paraded "spoil your vote" campaign still only managed to dredge up 12% which about 1/8 of all those voting.

 

[joe sod]

I thought she got only 3 - the 2x Aontu councillors and one independent from Swords. That's a good measure of where she was in terms of popular support. I mean even the heavily paraded "spoil your vote" campaign still only managed to dredge up 12% which about 1/8 of all those voting.

There was actually 12.9% of the vote that was spoiled thats huge , then you have the 7% of the vote for Jim Gavin, another form of protest against the ballot selection process, thats 20%, that's massive, one in five people made the effort to goto the vote centres and cast a vote in protest against how this presidential election was heavily restricted . They didn't just stay at home they actively sought to make sure their protest was recorded.
Catherine Connolly getting such a big vote was almost equivalent to Putin getting a huge vote, there was no real alternative, The Kremlin even had a competitor candidate disqualified and removed from running in the election aswell.

 

[JoeRoberts]

This was neither the decision of FG or its intent. The whip was applied simply to prevent FG reps from nominating third party candidates

Can you not see how contradictory these 2 statements are when taken with quote from Odyssey06. Time to give up trying to explain away the undemocratic election and now undemocratic President in waiting.

 

[Purple]

SF are a Republican Party, (spare me the history on Arthur Griffith and pre 1918 SF, I know) the basic aim of republicanism is to 'unite Catholic Protestant and Dissenter in the common name of Irishman'

Doesn't tally with their "Brit's out" mantra when a million of the people they seek to unite with regard themselves as British.

 

[Sister Sara]

Doesn't tally with their "Brit's out" mantra when a million of the people they seek to unite with regard themselves as British.

Which of course means, British Army, British State, out of Ireland, and not British people.

 

[mathepac]

They didn't just stay at home they actively sought to make sure their protest was recorded.

Far from it, their votes were discarded and counted for nothing, other than wasting time at the voting and count centres. Idiocy and anti-democratic actions.

 

[Purple]

Which of course means, British Army, British State, out of Ireland, and not British people.

Is that why they spent 40 years killing and terrorising those million people?