An unsuitable President ? And the failure of mainstream politics

[Purple]

SF vote bounces around anywhere from 20% to mid-twenties for last decade. PBP profit vote is between 2-3% over the same period. So that's not it, it must be something else.

Sinn Fein are the biggest party in the country. They lost a good chunk of their support since the last election by not being anti immigration enough. That vote has gone to the far right. That's the trouble with being a populist party which doesn't really stand for anything; your supporters are very fickle. They are the protest vote but don't really know what they are protesting about.

According to this chart, FG and FF (to lessor extent) are on a downward trajectory. Dissaffected centre-right voters that would ordinarily find home in these parties are turning to parties such as "Independent Ireland" and "Ireland First".

There's no way that FF cold possibly be described as Centre Left. They are a left wing party with a centre left wing. FG were traditionally centre right but haven't been since Fitzgerald in the 80's. Their policies on economic and social issues are definitely left wing.

These parties harbour hostile anti-migration sentiment fuelling itself in violence in CityWest and elsewhere. "Coolock says No", who parade with right-wing Ulster loyalists, are also attracting fuelling anti-immigration conflict.

Yes, the same people who voted for Sinn Fein until recently are now wrapping themselves in the tricolour for a different reason. Part of the problem is that there is no large centre right party in Ireland. Not on social issues and definitely not on economic issues. Aontú are the closest thing on social issues.

These are the votes that centre-right politics would ordinarily have shored up in more politically stable times.

No, they are predominantly from low income backgrounds and welfare dependent. So-called "working class" (the irony of that term is lost on them). They are as far from an FG voter as you could get and as a demographic haven't voted for FF since the mid 90's (if they ever voted at all).

They are more likely to label Sinn Fein as "traitors" as they break bread with their loyalist brethen.

They label Sinn Fein as traitors because they aren't anti immigration enough. Sinn Fein were founded as a ethno-nationalist Party but as they've embraced what was traditionally the liberal urban educated Labour Party cohort many of their traditional demographic have felt disenfranchised. I do wonder how that conflict plays out within the Party between the younger parts of the elected leadership and the actual leadership in Belfast.

 

[arbitron]

There's no way that FF cold possibly be described as Centre Left. They are a left wing party with a centre left wing. FG were traditionally centre right but haven't been since Fitzgerald in the 80's. Their policies on economic and social issues are definitely left wing.

I have never seen FF or FG described as anything other than centrist or centre-right. I had a look just now and could not find anything.

For example, these are all from 2024/2025:

UCD: The substance of the left-right dimension in Ireland

Fianna Fáil made a move to the centre in 2016

Holmes, M. and Simpson, K. (2025), Softly Does It? Changing Patterns of Opposition to European Integration in Ireland. Contemporary European Politics, 3: e70014. https://doi.org/10.1002/cep4.70014

The Chapel Hill Expert Survey categorises both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil as centre-right in orientation, Labour and the Social Democrats as centre-left, the Green Party as left-leaning green, and Sinn Féin and various smaller parties as left-wing

BBC: Who are the parties behind Irish politics?

[FF] was once seen as more centrist but is now seen as more centre-right.

Guardian: Ireland’s two main centre-right parties to form coalition government

Ireland’s two main centre-right parties have clinched a deal with a group of independent lawmakers to form a coalition government

Reuters: Ireland's centre-right parties close in on re-election, likely to need new partner

Ireland's two large centre-right parties looked set to be returned to power after an election on Friday

TCD/The Conversation: Why Ireland’s government was one of the few worldwide to be re-elected this year

At the end of a year that saw parties around the world punished by voters, Ireland’s centre-right Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have managed to avoid the incumbents’ curse.

 

[Purple]

I have never seen FF or FG described as anything other than centrist or centre-right.

I look at their policies and actions in government. Massively increasing welfare, reducing tax in low earners, increasing tax on high earners, massively increasing social supports, weighting investment in education towards lower socioeconomic groups and areas, legislating to force employers to negotiate with Unions. These are left wing policies.

Marriage equality, liberalising abortion laws, legislating to protect minorities. These are liberal policies.


The Guardian and Irish Academia are very left wing. The BBC and Reuters are centralist but with a left-leaning bias. The University of North Carolina (the Chapel Hill Expert Study) is a liberal university. Most liberal/left wing bodies consider centre-left parties to be centre-right or right wing.

 

[arbitron]

The Guardian and Irish Academia are very left wing. The BBC and Reuters are centralist but with a left-leaning bias. The University of North Carolina (the Chapel Hill Expert Study) is a liberal university. Most liberal/left wing bodies consider centre-left parties to be centre-right or right wing.

Can you point us to a few sources you view as unbiased or credible that describe FF or FG as anything other than centrist or centre-right?

 

[Purple]

Can you point us to a few sources you view as unbiased or credible that describe FF or FG as anything other than centrist or centre-right?

Can you show me a major policy or action from either which you would describe as other than left wing?

 

[arbitron]

Can you show me a major policy or action from either which you would describe as other than left wing?

You made the claim that FF and FG are left of centre. It is up to you to provide evidence to support your arguments.

I went to the trouble of looking for reputable sources to learn more. I don't care one way or the other how those parties are defined, I'm not a member of either, but I could find no publications to back up your claims.

You dismissed every single article and source but did not provide any citations to counter them. Even The Economist, which is hardly left wing, describes them both as right of centre.

If you can't find any, that's fine, then we can move on to personal opinions, but you can't just skip over a request for evidence because it's inconvenient. That's not how constructive discussions and debates work.

 

[Purple]

You made the claim that FF and FG are left of centre. It is up to you to provide evidence to support your arguments.

I did.
You gave other people's opinions. Can you give evidence based on policy or action?

I'm aware that they are described as centre right but I can't find a right wing policy from either party. Can you?
I'm not a member of either party but I find the characterisation of them as right wing, or even neo-liberal by the Irish Times, as bizarre. The evidence doesn't back up the badge.

 

[Marsupial]

Surely the fact that FG is a member of the EPP would suggest that it regards itself as a center-right party?

After all, according to its website, the EPP is "the family of the political centre-right, whose roots run deep in the history and civilisation of the European continent, and [which] has pioneered the European project from its inception".

Evidently FF regarded the EPP as much too right-wing for it, so opted to join ALDE (The Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe) instead!

So FG is centre-right and FF is either liberal or democratic, or possibly both!

 

[arbitron]

I did.

I asked you to provide some sources (e.g. from the press, academia) and you ignored the request. You responded by asking me to discuss their policies and actions. I would be happy to do that but surely first you could make an effort to engage with my (very reasonable) prior request, even if it is to say that you cannot find any sources.

 

[arbitron]

You gave other people's opinions. Can you give evidence based on policy or action?

I'm aware that they are described as centre right but I can't find a right wing policy from either party. Can you?
I'm not a member of either party but I find the characterisation of them as right wing, or even neo-liberal by the Irish Times, as bizarre. The evidence doesn't back up the badge.

I had replied to this before you edited it.

Neither of us can find any 3rd party sources to say that FF or FG are left wing, centre-left, or anything other than centre/centre-right. That's fine.

If you are doing an analysis yourself based on their policies and actions, then you would have to set out your definitions of "left wing", etc. and the context (e.g. does the centre look the same everywhere in the world or even everywhere in Europe?). Otherwise people are talking at cross purposes.

You have also mentioned liberal, which can have many meanings, some of them contradictory.

 

[Leo]

I asked you to provide some sources (e.g. from the press, academia) and you ignored the request. You responded by asking me to discuss their policies and actions.

In fairness, do you judge politicians and their parties on their promises and how they present themselves or their actions? They might choose to describe themselves as centre-right to garner votes from those who like the label, but if their policies and actions are actually left of centre, what should they be described as?

 

[arbitron]

In fairness, do you judge politicians and their parties on their promises and how they present themselves or their actions? They might choose to describe themselves as centre-right to garner votes from those who like the label, but if their policies and actions are actually left of centre, what should they be described as?

Absolutely. Just strange that there is nothing in media, academia, etc. being offered to back that up.

 

[Sister Sara]

They lost a good chunk of their support since the last election by not being anti immigration enough.

I agree that a significant cohort of the anti-immigration movement swayed toward SF following the initial emergence of anti-immigration in Ireland. Probably on their perception of SF being proud flyers of the Irish tricolour and understanding that from 1916 to the Troubles, it was all about the Irish race v foreigners (for most part British race).
I cant think of any other reason to explain the political illiteracy of some voters. They supported SF at the very same SF were to the forefront of keeping the land border between Ireland and UK completely open for everyone to come and go unhindered.

To perceive SF as 'anti-immigration' is part of that illiteracy. It's up there with anyone who thinks PBP are counterparts to the CityWest mob of anti-immigration and violence.
As everyone knows, PBP have been to the forefront of the counter demonstrations against these anti-immigration protests.

They are a left wing party with a centre left wing. FG were traditionally centre right but haven't been since Fitzgerald in the 80's. Their policies on economic and social issues are definitely left wing.

So you can confirm then, notwithstanding obvious deficits in public services and overflows in spending, that it is left-wing social and economic policies that have brought Ireland from the backward, bankrupt, brown-envelope, 80's into one of the least corrupt, most transparent, wealthy economies in the world?

 

[Purple]

So you can confirm then, notwithstanding obvious deficits in public services and overflows in spending, that it is left-wing social and economic policies that have brought Ireland from the backward, bankrupt, brown-envelope, 80's into one of the least corrupt, most transparent, wealthy economies in the world?

They have been a big part of how the wealth has been redistributed. It's been paid for by the right wing policy of being a quasi tax haven for large multinational companies. The backward, bankrupt, brown-envelope, 80's were far more left wing; much higher income and business taxes etc.

 

[Marsupial]

Allowing PTSB to flog itself to the highest bidder seems to be a centre-right approach from its largest stockholder.

No doubt we'll shortly be hearing howls of outrage from the usual suspects.

 

[Purple]

Allowing PTSB to flog itself to the highest bidder seems to be a centre-right approach from its largest stockholder.

No doubt we'll shortly be hearing howls of outrage from the usual suspects

I think it's fair to say that FF and FG are bang on centre in how they raise money; no property tax (right wing), low business taxes (right wing) but high income taxes (left wing) and lots of double taxation (left wing) but left of centre on how they spend money and on social issues.

 

[Sister Sara]

It's been paid for by the right wing policy of being a quasi tax haven for large multinational companies.

FF and FG have been in power over the entire period since 1980's. You have labelled them both left-wing, or centre-left.

You are now saying that these left-wing, centre-left parties have been implementing right-wing policy of quasi-tax haven!

Wouldn't it just be best to say they are centre-politics, leaning to both the left and right on social and economic issues, depending on the political landscape of the time?

 

[Purple]

Wouldn't it just be best to say they are centre-politics, leaning to both the left and right on social and economic issues, depending on the political landscape of the time?

Quite possibly but all parties have changed significantly since the 1980's. FG are liberal on social issues (though they still have a socially conservative/bigoted wing), FF are not the party of big builders (it's hard to know what they are), and SF no longer think it's okay to murder children or Gardai (though they still lionise the men who did it). All parties change with the times, or at least they should.

 

[Persia]

As a FG member of long standing (overall I would not longer characterise the party as Centre right) Its a centrist party at best. I'm holding out hope a new leader will recalibrate.

Can't speak for FF but observations would lead me to think they are similar.

 

[Purple]

Can't speak for FF but observations would lead me to think they are similar.

FF have always been left of centre. SF have the same policies FF had in the 1970's.