a Lisbon question before i decide
- Thread starter johnwilliams
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Ganley is an odd fish.
Perhaps he was there to draw out the venom last year, only he did the job too well, or perhaps this was a total set up, with the economic crash designed to bring us to heel and crush our spirit at the same time. I dunno.
Ganley looks like an SAS man in a suit.
Freaks me out in ways I can't explain.
FWIW.
ONQ.
There was talk recently that Mary Coughlan might be given the next commisioner job as a sweetener to get her out of her current post. If she was representing us in the European parliament, I think I would prefer to lose our commisioner.
Don't know what is is about Ganley that gives me a sense of unease - maybe because I think he wants a No vote for personal reasons v's 'for the better of the Irish people'
Gotta hand it to him that he performed well on the debate - he out classed O'Leary who could only say vote Yes because he is a major Irish employer & that Ganley was a failed politician - O'Leary shown as for the arrogant thug that he commonly portrays.
Gotta hand it to him that he performed well on the debate - he out classed O'Leary who could only say vote Yes because he is a major Irish employer & that Ganley was a failed politician - O'Leary shown as for the arrogant thug that he commonly portrays.
There is nothing wrong with flying the American flag . I have stood under it manys a time to sing their anthem but hiding it from the cameras is a bit suspect....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMRP_TqBzr0&feature=player_embedded
I wonder did he put up an EU won to replace it. I have one at home if he wants to borrow it.
Many is the person that displayed a national flag beside their own for a meeting in their office. I'm 100% positive I've got a Romanian one and, nearly sure, even a Serbian one kicking round somewhere.
As to the 'greater good'..is anyone SO naive as to think that there is a single main-political-party-aligned TD in Ireland that has anything in mind other than his own self interest? Lisbon is about a train with 'GRAVY' written on it's nameplate.
Vote 'Yes' to Lisbon and you'll get NAMA. When the reality of that one has sunk home and O'Leary has given everyone the option of cheap flights out of the country would the last person to leave please turn off the lights.
As to the 'greater good'..is anyone SO naive as to think that there is a single main-political-party-aligned TD in Ireland that has anything in mind other than his own self interest? Lisbon is about a train with 'GRAVY' written on it's nameplate.
Vote 'Yes' to Lisbon and you'll get NAMA. When the reality of that one has sunk home and O'Leary has given everyone the option of cheap flights out of the country would the last person to leave please turn off the lights.
What really annoys me is that the people who destroyed our economy, turned Irish Politics into a dirty word, and our society into one thats all law, and no order, are telling me I should vote Yes. The same ones who hide behind Reports, Commissions, Authorities, Executives and Councils, and who never give a straight answer.
The Opposition, are telling me to vote Yes because they are petrified that there will an Election if the Treaty is voted down, and then they will have to sort out the mess we are now in.
Michael O Leary is telling me to vote Yes, because he is trying to curry favour with Europe and the Government for his next takeover bid for Aer Lingus.
The IFA are telling me to vote yes, as are the Trade Unions because they know that there will be retribution from the Government if they don't.
Everybody else is trotting out the line that "things have changed since the last vote, and we are now in a different economic climate ". So what ? The Treaty is the same. Using the 'changed economy' and the 'we need the financial support of Europe' argument, seems like coercion to me.
The Opposition, are telling me to vote Yes because they are petrified that there will an Election if the Treaty is voted down, and then they will have to sort out the mess we are now in.
Michael O Leary is telling me to vote Yes, because he is trying to curry favour with Europe and the Government for his next takeover bid for Aer Lingus.
The IFA are telling me to vote yes, as are the Trade Unions because they know that there will be retribution from the Government if they don't.
Everybody else is trotting out the line that "things have changed since the last vote, and we are now in a different economic climate ". So what ? The Treaty is the same. Using the 'changed economy' and the 'we need the financial support of Europe' argument, seems like coercion to me.
I will be voting yes. I would prefer that the Lisbon teaty never existed but it does. That being so I have to decide whether its best for us to be outside lookin in or inside lookin out! And I dont mean the EU..I know we cant be thrown, out... what I mean is the club of "good members".
So do I believe Ganley who makes my skin crawl and the, for the most part, the nutters on the No side or all the rest of our body politic. Ultimately I cannot see FF FG and Labour all wanting us to say Yes if the Treaty is so bad for Ireland.
Anyway as to respecting the wishes of the Irish people given that this is the same Irish people who have re-elected Bertie and Brian less than 2 years ago I have to assume that the electorate is not infallible
I wavered right up till the lastminute last time but the ridiculous posters this time of the NO side made up my mind for me very very quickly!!!
So do I believe Ganley who makes my skin crawl and the, for the most part, the nutters on the No side or all the rest of our body politic. Ultimately I cannot see FF FG and Labour all wanting us to say Yes if the Treaty is so bad for Ireland.
Anyway as to respecting the wishes of the Irish people given that this is the same Irish people who have re-elected Bertie and Brian less than 2 years ago I have to assume that the electorate is not infallible
I wavered right up till the lastminute last time but the ridiculous posters this time of the NO side made up my mind for me very very quickly!!!
We should have a change in the constitution that referendums are the best out of three.
It goes a bit deeper than this, but it’s still supposition. However, the media have asked where the funding from Libertas has come from, it’s a question he has never answered.
Last, not pointing towards any particular theories on Ganley, but: his company has senior US military officials acting on its board. Several of these made public statements many years ago when Europe first began negotiating a Constitution. They didn’t want Europe to work towards any military agreement. Essentially, the bit in the Treaty that says where your borders are under threat, Europe doesn’t have to go through NATO (ergo the US) and can take its own action. (Though Ireland doesn’t have to as per its neutrality).
As well as that, the EDA negotiates common cost rates for equipment, arms and weaponry, whereas before individual states had to negotiate on their own. In addition, the EDA helps with R&D at a European level.
It’s more the fact that a total (and growing) population of 500 million, controlling its own military(ies) that freaks out the Americans. They quite like telling us which wars we can fight in…and supplying the equipment…etc, etc.
So they were against it, they (the current directors of Ganley’s company) wrote articles in American defence magazines. One even said they should form a political party in Europe to end the Constitution and to make sure Europe remains subservient to the US. He even suggested a name for the party: Libertas. This was about 8 years ago.
Not sure if that’s all a coincidence though.
The loss of a Commissioner doesn’t affect this. Remember the Commissioner can only vote for what’s best for Europe, not Ireland. The voting loss is another issue, but voting power is lost, but not influence.
Think of the Eurovision song contest. How all the Eastern European States can effectively “gang up” and create the winners. That’s a bit like Europe at the moment, too many can gang up and set an agenda (whether large or small states). The new system while on paper reducing Ireland’s votes, actually means that by requiring both a number of votes and percentage of the population to pass an issue, that neither big nor small states can have such an obstructive influence.
The other point is to not underestimate Ireland’s voice in Europe. Whenever there’s a conference/junket in the new states (and those yet to join), there’s one country they look to for advice and information and that’s here. The ILO regularly uses various Irish representatives as a selling point in its own conferences and seminars.
This respect and influence is not tangible, but it’s worth more than any vote you can imagine.
The Times ran a picture with the UKIP members in their "respect the Irish" attire (must remember that bit when they celebrate Cromwell). That one picture alone could be good for an overwhelming Yes.
I'm going to vote No in all future EU referenda until the EU insists on getting rid of unelected heads of State among its membership. In this day and age, there is no place for unelected feudal monarchs. EU should be promoting democracy, not pandering to the unelected.
DublinTexas
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Well now that according to the latest opinion polls the fear mongers have bullied the Irish electorate into accepting a repeated vote based on “guarantees” I think it’s time to accept that those in power in Ireland will never accept the will of the people if it does not match their own.
Once the so called “guarantees” will fall apart the swing voters will realize that they once again have been dubbed into doing their masters will.
Once the miracle recovery that a yes vote will guarantee (as promised by the rulers ) is not happening they will realize that they have been lied to but next election they again will vote for the same people because that is how it always has been and how it always will be in Ireland.
As citizens of the only country in Europe that actually has the right to vote directly on forming a legal entity called the European Union with all it’s undemocratic, unelected power bases and foreign control over national laws we should actually take this more serious. But instead our masters tell us that if we don’t vote yes, Europe will break down and only stop short of saying that Ireland might get kicked out of the EU.
This whole campaign on both sites is fear mongering, where is the open discussion about the details, both sides play politics and business as usual with one of the most important treaties that will shape the future of Europe for centuries to come.
Once the so called “guarantees” will fall apart the swing voters will realize that they once again have been dubbed into doing their masters will.
Once the miracle recovery that a yes vote will guarantee (as promised by the rulers ) is not happening they will realize that they have been lied to but next election they again will vote for the same people because that is how it always has been and how it always will be in Ireland.
As citizens of the only country in Europe that actually has the right to vote directly on forming a legal entity called the European Union with all it’s undemocratic, unelected power bases and foreign control over national laws we should actually take this more serious. But instead our masters tell us that if we don’t vote yes, Europe will break down and only stop short of saying that Ireland might get kicked out of the EU.
This whole campaign on both sites is fear mongering, where is the open discussion about the details, both sides play politics and business as usual with one of the most important treaties that will shape the future of Europe for centuries to come.
Can we be sure there will ever be another Referendum on matters european in this country, if the current one accepts Lisbon?
I also think that our politicians showed total contempt for the democratic will of our citizens. After the last referendum, they should have gone to Brussels saying that the Irish people have serious reservations about some aspects of the treaty and that this should be used as an opportunity to reopen the debate on the future of the EU. They should have also refused to hold a second referendum until every other country in the EU had held a referendum, saying that one of the concerns of the Irish people is that their fellow EU citizens have been denied a vote. Instead of our politicians being apologetic and acting as if we did something wrong, we could have seriously enhanced the reputation of Ireland across the EU by advocating a greater say for the taxpayers of Europe. This would have generated a lot of good will towards us from the European populace.
There is one thing that I am very concerned about and could cost us billions in foreign direct investment. If we vote yes, then we are sending a message to the world that Irish politicians are more concerned about pleasing Brussels bureaucrats than looking after their own people. That even if we vote a particular way in a Constitutional referendum, that we will change or minds in order to please Brussels.
The big elephant in the room here is our corporation tax, which is the reason we get investment in Ireland. If you're the head of a multinational and you're thinking of locating in Ireland to avail of the corporation tax, you'll be looking at Fridays results very closely. A Yes vote will tell you that there is no point in setting up in Ireland, because if Brussels orders corporation tax harmonisation, then Ireland will eventually give in.
There is one thing that I am very concerned about and could cost us billions in foreign direct investment. If we vote yes, then we are sending a message to the world that Irish politicians are more concerned about pleasing Brussels bureaucrats than looking after their own people. That even if we vote a particular way in a Constitutional referendum, that we will change or minds in order to please Brussels.
The big elephant in the room here is our corporation tax, which is the reason we get investment in Ireland. If you're the head of a multinational and you're thinking of locating in Ireland to avail of the corporation tax, you'll be looking at Fridays results very closely. A Yes vote will tell you that there is no point in setting up in Ireland, because if Brussels orders corporation tax harmonisation, then Ireland will eventually give in.
Again some examples to back this up. There are kingdoms within the EU, but it is their elected parliaments and MEPs who represent them at EU level. The Monarchies have no involvement whatsoever. They cannot be members if they don't meet the Copenhagen criteriea where they must have free and secret elections.
There's a great example across the Irish sea. The Queen of England is not elected, yet she is a Head of State. No Law in the UK can come into effect until the Queen signs it. While the current Queen is generally compliant, she can refuse to sign things. She also obtained her job through birthright. No ordinary UK citizen (or should I say subject) is allowed to become King/Queen on merit or by election. The UK also has an unelected chamber in is Parliament call the House of Lords. The HOL is also the equivalent of our Supreme Court. So unelected Lords, some there by birth, are allowed to act as the final Judge and jury legal cases in the UK.
There are also a lot of other things that hang off a country having a monarch - the subjects have lesser rights in some areas e.g. no absolute right to sue the State, no absolute ownership of property (even "freehold" in the UK is subject to the Monarch). Also, the Queen is the commander of the armed forces in the UK. They are there to defend her interests which are not always the same as those of the British people. We may be living in peaceful times with a UK monarch who is compliant and doesnt rock the boat. As we can see from history, it isnt always that way.
When has the UK had "free and secret" elections for its Head of State?
Simply put: Yes. If there is another Treaty, there will have to be another referendum. The current proposed Treaty is not self-correcting. If it needs changing, we will need to vote again.
How is it an elephant in the room when it is clearly addressed in the Treaty? We get to set our own tax. If, and it’s a big if, there is a move to tax harmonisation, member states can opt out. That’s it. There is no elephant.
Besides which there really isn’t any overall will for harmonisation, only, as pointed out elsewhere, but high tax states that object to low tax states attracting employment. Hardly universal or anywhere near the majority required.
Second, you ignore why people invest here, its not just our tax rate, lets face it, what they get back there balanced against other high costs. We have a lot of positives attached to us, yes the tax, but also knowledge base, language, and…well it’s better here than in Poland, so it’s attractive for their top executives. But we have to remember that we are a gateway to Europe and nothing else. We are not attractive as customers as theirs only 4 million of us. The 500 million in the EU is a big market, our ties to that market and influence within Europe is a big deal to these companies. If we isolate ourselves from Europe, that’s where the intangible positives like culture and knowledge base may not be so attractive.
Again, we lose votes, but not influence.