a Lisbon question before i decide

J

johnwilliams

Registered User
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238
hi folks
when the original group of countries got together compromises were made by each (gains and losses) now we come along looking fo a gain/sweetener for our yes vote .one of the original countries may now have to give up one of their gains to us to get us on board.
what happens when the next country comes along after us looking for a sweetener .the sweetener we got for our vote. can the other members of the group take it from us and give it to them and we will have no say or ability to stop it from happening

not great at getting my point across so i hope you understand what i am trying to ask
 
the problem is that the sweetener we got has not been entered into the wording of the treaty! and thats why many dont believe its wort a jot.
 
None of the so-called guarantees have been written into the treaty. They will be dumped as soon as the irish electorate votes the 'right' way. The Lisbon Treaty remains unchanged.

I'm particularly disgusted by the presence of Barroso in the country this weekend rattling his sabre at the people of a sovereign state. But then I guess he doesn't view us as such. Just an unruly province of a soon-to-be federal europe.

Interesting isn't it that Cowen didn't meet him off the plane? I wonder why? FF are beneath contempt and their leader knows it.
 
Ancutza said:
None of the so-called guarantees have been written into the treaty.
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OK, you are a NO voter.

But be honest, do you not find it strange that Ireland should be deemed 'special' in that they need guarantees about anything?

What guarantees do you personally feel we should have?
 
Ancutza said:
They will be dumped as soon as the irish electorate votes the 'right' way.....

..I'm particularly disgusted by the presence of Barroso in the country this weekend ...
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Can you give an example where the EU ever reneged on any similar guarentees or opt outs, e.g. UK, Denmark, Sweeden to name a few? If the guraentees were dumped, it would be a first.
Why would we be singled out for that treatment?

As for Barroso - I want to hear more from the EU. Am tired of hearing paranoid [FONT=&quot]conspiracy plots from no campaigners. I want to hear the whole story.
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D8Lady said:
Can you give an example where the EU ever reneged on any similar guarentees or opt outs, e.g. UK, Denmark, Sweeden to name a few? If the guraentees were dumped, it would be a first.
Why would we be singled out for that treatment?
[FONT=&quot]
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then why are they not being properly written to the treaty?
 
Do people seriously believe that Youth Defence, Coir, Sinn Fein, Patricia McKenna, Boyd Barret, Jim Corr, Joe Higgins are all correct and we should have every trust in them. I don't think I have ever met such a crowd of headbangers. I'll take my chances with the Yes vote
 
starlite68 said:
then why are they not being properly written to the treaty?
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Because over 20 countries have already ratified the lisbon Treaty.
The guarentees will be in a seperate treaty.

[broken link removed]
"The new international treaty will come into force on the same day as the Treaty of Lisbon, if the Treaty of Lisbon is ratified by all the member states."

But you haven't answered my question: When has the EU ever reneged on any agreement? Why do you believe that Ireland would be the first?
 
Thanks for that link D8. Highly enlightening. If you take a moment to read down as to the status of the so-called guarantees you will read..

The solemn declaration is a political statement. It is not legally binding.
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(My italics).

As Starlite correctly observes this is about political expediency. Tell 'em what they want to hear so they'll vote our way. Terrorise them. Make them lie down in fear. After that we will do what the heck we like. Akin to any electioneering slogans 'No new taxes', 'Full employment', 'Taxes cuts for all', blah, blah, blah, blah, blah... Why is this not being done properly by writing in these so-called guarantees into the treaty? This baloney that theses assurances will be written into a later accession treaty is just that. Baloney!

If I take you at your word that the EU has, until now, not reneged on any of it's opt out clauses, exemptions etc will you take me at my word that they will when their federal european project is far enough along for there to be no going back?

Why is your argument more credible than mine?

The 'Yes' campaign is purely based on fear and shoring-up the gravy train for failed EU policy makers everywhere.

As in favour as I am of Ireland continuing to be at the heart of Europe (believe it or not I do actually think so) the Lisbon Treaty is an inequitable way forward for us which will erode our sovereinty further and push us into second class status within the EU.

The EU has utterly no respect for democracy otherwise it would have respected our first vote. Equally our elected officials have no respect for us. They are going to sell our small island down the river and, when they've done that, they are going inflict NAMA on us to save their mates from the Galway tent and all the greedy bankers at the expense of us,our kids and our grandkids. A spectacular double whammy which you are advocating. For shame!
 
You can't just quote one part of the section and ignore the rest. It says the

"The guarantees are contained in a new international treaty which is legally binding on all 27member states of the EU.'
and the
"The new international treaty will come into force on the same day as the Treaty of Lisbon, if the Treaty of Lisbon is ratified by all the member states."

The solemn declaration is in relation to workers rights
 
Ancutza said:
... the Lisbon Treaty is an inequitable way forward for us which will erode our sovereinty further and push us into second class status within the EU.
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Explain please ?

Is it the fact that we will have less voting rights than we do now ? Well a democracy is all about '1 person, 1 vote' and at the moment we have much too high a vote based on our population. Reducing that may not be nice, but it would be ultimately fairer, no ?
 
The new international treaty will come into force on the same day as the Treaty of Lisbon, if the Treaty of Lisbon is ratified by all the member states."
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What new international treaty is this?? Furthermore if it exists then why have we not been asked to vote on it too? Smoke and mirrors in my opinion.

With regard to the solemn declaration, I'll take your point. But the fact is that NONE of the so-called guarantees hold any water legally. For them to do so would mean them being written into the Lisbon Treaty as Starlite correctly points out.
 
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Is it the fact that we will have less voting rights than we do now ? Well a democracy is all about '1 person, 1 vote' and at the moment we have much too high a vote based on our population. Reducing that may not be nice, but it would be ultimately fairer, no ?
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I'll take that point too but doesn't democracy also require you to respect the clearly stated wishes of an electorate even if that vote may have went against you? Did we not say 'No' already? Why do we have to do it again?

There are many instances where minorities (as we are in the EU) have weighted benefits granted to them under particular legislation to ensure that they are not simply subsumed under the weight of the majority. This, in the current format of the Treaty of Lisbon, will not apply to us. The whole thing either needs dumping (my opinion) or, at the very least, a massively substantial renegotiation.

What's going on at the moment is press-gang politics.
 
It sounds to me that you have indeed made you your mind, which was the purpose of your original question.
 
Ancutza said:
What new international treaty is this?? Furthermore if it exists then why have we not been asked to vote on it too? Smoke and mirrors in my opinion.
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From citizens information page
"The guarantees are contained in a new international treaty which is legally binding on all 27member states of the EU. They are not part of the Lisbon Treaty. The Lisbon treaty itself is not changed by this new treaty. The European Council has agreed that protocols will be added to a later EU treaty to give full effect in EU law to the guarantees (this is likely to be a Treaty of Accession for a new member state – Croatia or Iceland). The main difference between this international treaty and a protocol to an EU Treaty is that an international treaty, while binding on the signatories, does not have an enforcement mechanism. An EU treaty and any protocol to it becomes part of EU law and is enforceable by the European Court of Justice in the same way as other EU laws."
 
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