a Lisbon question before i decide

I am sick of the Yes brigade treating this upcoming referendum as being a vote on Europe, its not, should we vote No we are still in Europe. Should we vote No, the Treaty cannot go ahead, and if the Conservative party win the UK general Election early next year they have stated that they will hold a referendum on this Treaty, it does not take a genius to predict that outcome. It clearly would be defeated. It would also be defeated in France. Netherlands if their citizens were afforded a vote on it.

We are simply asking them to go back to the drawing board, this treaty was drawn up under utterly completely circumstances that prevail today. It makes me laugh, as we stand today there are 4 EU members that have not even subscribed to the euro as a currency ! Yet we are being treated very badly because we have the audacity to question the Treaty. Giving such power to People who in the past were worried how straight a banana should be !!

Wheeling out Michael O'Leary was hilarious, that man does not give a sht about consumers, or workers. He was obviously not even up to speed on the Treaty, licking This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language for his own agenda, he surprised me as to how low he would stoop.

Secman

A year is a long time in politics, would you have predicted that 12 months ago FF ratings would have dropped to an all time low? You can never say for definite that a treaty would be accepted or rejected in a referendum in another country, who knows what would happen?. Anyway, if you follow the logic of that arguement, we should all be voting yes on Friday because it doesn't matter

The reality is that Europe has been good for Ireland and the historical benifits far outweigh the costs to date. We wouldn't be expelled from the EU if we voted no, but it would be naive to assume that the other countries would simply forget it and move on as if nothing had happened. I genuinely believe it would be remembered that we had rejected the treaty and that at some stage, down the line, a price would have to be paid.

As for Michael O'Leary, at least he is not a reformed terrorist, we know how he makes his money and how he funded his campaign, he hasn't published incorrect versions of the treaty on his website, he doesn't say no to everything a la Patricia McKenna, I don't recall seeing ads or posters from him that are factually incorrect and he's not Jim Corr!!!!
 
I don't often agree with Michael O'Leary but he is right when he says the 'No' campaign is been led by losers and nutters!

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-...inational-interference-in-lisbon-1900516.html

Lets just ban multinationals. What did they ever do for this Country?

By the way I am not having a go at those people who are voting 'No' for some genuine reason. People are perfectly entitled to be anti-treaty or anti-EU. Just a shame that the campaign was hijacked by the left wing looney tune brigade.
 
I am sick of the Yes brigade treating this upcoming referendum as being a vote on Europe, its not, should we vote No we are still in Europe. Should we vote No, the Treaty cannot go ahead, and if the Conservative party win the UK general Election early next year they have stated that they will hold a referendum on this Treaty, it does not take a genius to predict that outcome. It clearly would be defeated. It would also be defeated in France. Netherlands if their citizens were afforded a vote on it.


Secman

What David Cameron says and will do are two separate things. Unfortunately for him, The UK Parliament (which includes the Tories)voted to ratify the treaty. What he could have done is used the parliamentary process to influence a No vote, but that pesky thing of democracy keeps popping up and the majority of his honourable and learned colleagues voted to ratify. The UK has now ratified it. Unless Gordon Brown had his fingers crossed behind his back at the time, the only way the UK can actually do anything is to remove itself from Europe as a whole...which isn't that easy as it is....though ironically is formalised under Lisbon. So the conservatives would have to use one of the new efficiencies of Lisbon in order to opt out of it.
 
Likelihood is that a 'no' to Lisbon would bring a general election
How did you work that out? Who do you reckon is going to bring down the Govt?

The most likely outcome of a no vote is that the FF chancers will take the opportunity to dump Cowan and put Martin or Ahern or maybe even Lenihan in place. They will then claim distance from the bad oul days, and blame everything on Bertie and Cowan.
 
One thing that worries me.

The media keep on saying that Ganley's campaign is funded by loads of foreign business people, a lot who work in the financial sector.

Since foreign investment and the financial sector are big in Ireland, does the notion that foreign investors are funding the No campaign not scare everyone? Certainly indicates that foreign investment and jobs will be less likely to locate in Ireland in the event of a Yes vote.

Yes campaign cant have it both ways - saying that Yes will create jobs, but critical of the fact that big business is funding the No campaign.
 
One thing that worries me.

The media keep on saying that Ganley's campaign is funded by loads of foreign business people, a lot who work in the financial sector.

Since foreign investment and the financial sector are big in Ireland, does the notion that foreign investors are funding the No campaign not scare everyone? Certainly indicates that foreign investment and jobs will be less likely to locate in Ireland in the event of a Yes vote.

Yes campaign cant have it both ways - saying that Yes will create jobs, but critical of the fact that big business is funding the No campaign.

It's not really hypocritical at all. We have statements from American chambers saying it will affect their future investment in Ireland. Despite all the stuff that has gone on and despite all the costs associated with the state, the vast majority are still here. But they're concerned about a No vote. It shows that a No vote will have repercussions. The uncertainty it will cause will mean we lose a lot.

On Ganley: first point is that not a cent of those investments actually makes its way into Ireland. The second point is who (based on what can be gathered from the scant information) those investors are. He has contracts with the American military and they lose out with a Yes. The weapons industry as a whole will lose out also because they won't be able to charge Ireland double for a new Helicopter (for Mary to get to the races). Plus the majority of Europe's quite natural inclination towards peacekeeping rather than invasion may also have an impact.

Now if Ganley's investors are humble bankers and corner shop owners, then fine, I'll take it all back. But there’s enough about to strongly suspect that "Hedge fund owners" is non-libellous speak for a more nefarious team of investors who don’t have Ireland’s best intentions at heart.
 
On Ganley: first point is that not a cent of those investments actually makes its way into Ireland. The second point is who (based on what can be gathered from the scant information) those investors are. He has contracts with the American military and they lose out with a Yes. The weapons industry as a whole will lose out also because they won't be able to charge Ireland double for a new Helicopter (for Mary to get to the races).

There are now quite a few companies supplying the weapons industry in Ireland and it is expected to be a growth industry in the next few years. Ireland produces a lot fo the technology components which go into smart weapons. A lot of the companies who produce these components would not be household names, so they are much under the radar from a public knowledge point of view. There are thousands of people employed directly in this industry and potentially tens of thousands in the future. Losing this business will have a big effect on our finances.
 
I'm not going to start naming companies on a open forum and be responsible for crackpots picketing them.

Friend of mine works for one which currently employs 800 people. I've another friend who has worked for one in the past - building components for smart missiles.
 
In my view Ganley is a patriot. It should be clear to those who care to see that it is the Yes campaign that is disingenuous and that is littered with proponents with personal vested interests. Tomorrow's vote is momentous. It will determine whether or not the EU political classes and plutocracy have managed to usurp self-determination from the peoples of Europe.
 
There are now quite a few companies supplying the weapons industry in Ireland and it is expected to be a growth industry in the next few years. Ireland produces a lot fo the technology components which go into smart weapons. A lot of the companies who produce these components would not be household names, so they are much under the radar from a public knowledge point of view. There are thousands of people employed directly in this industry and potentially tens of thousands in the future. Losing this business will have a big effect on our finances.

Couldn't agree more, but it isn't these companies that are funding Ganley. These are companies that will profit from the EDA due to common funding for R&D and the nature of the purchasing policy for equipment.

Again though, these are not the same companies funding Libertas. Knowing some of them as you do and also respecting their privacy, many are engaged in supporting the Yes campaign.
 
Latrade, from reading your last few posts is it fair to say that you believe that, amongst other vested interests, the EU armament industry are funding/promoting the Yes campaign and that for all you know it is concerned Irish citizens who are funding the No campaign? Because that's how it reads.
 
Latrade, from reading your last few posts is it fair to say that you believe that, amongst other vested interests, the EU armament industry are funding/promoting the Yes campaign and that for all you know it is concerned Irish citizens who are funding the No campaign? Because that's how it reads.

No its not fair to say that, not even remotely.

I stated there have been multi-national employers that have stated that a No vote would affect their future decisions regarding investment in Ireland. However, to my knowlegde they haven't engaged in any funding or physical campagining, largely because they see it as Ireland's decision and beyond a statement (a pretty strong not too subtle one it has to be admitted) they feel it is inappropriate to directly fund or participate.

This is in contrast to the Libertas campaign that has funding from outside of Ireland, but then as you say Ganley is a patriot, just one who has to get his funding from unknown sources from outside the state.

The issue of the arms industry is that there are native companies that provide technology to various arms companies. The Treaty means Europe is less dependent on the American arms industry and American Arms R&D. This will benefit the Irish technology companies, it will not benefit some of the "cannot be named for legal reasons" foreign investors in the Libertas campaign.

As with all employers, these native Irish companies are free to put their money into any campaign or lobbying they wish. This is all on record and can be accessed through any freedom of information request. They are a few among many other corporate, political and independent sources who have chosen to invest in the Yes campaign.

The real question is why Grand Patriot Concerned Irish Citizen Ganely's "cannot be named for legal reasons" investors are not native, have no business involvement in Ireland, are not open about who they are and why they object to the Treaty.

My reading, therefore, of your statement is that free, open and public funding from native business is in someway nefarious, yet non-Irish funding from "cannot be named for legal reasons" sources, who do not provide any investment or jobs in Ireland wish to fund an individual while hiding behind numerous layers of smoke and subtefuge is honest, patriotic and concerned citizens (though only one is actually a citizen).

Dunno, just seems you've got the priorities wrong. You're also against a federal Europe, but seem willing to support the involvement of the US in European affairs in order to achieve this misguided principle. You seem keen to keep European armies under the control of the US. You seem keen to ensure that european defence spending is at the whim of American and British companies, to which Britain and America would retain the "first dibs" on the best stuff and smaller states would effectively continue to look for cast offs, old stock and black market equipment.

Last and not least. Of all the great patriots this nation has known and owes its existence to are you really putting Ganley up there with them? Think about that for a bit before using such superlatives in future.
 
You either really believe that Ganley is a US puppet (hardly) or you don't believe it and are happy to push such a suggestion to further your own argument. I view Ganley as a patriot (a defender of the interests of the people of Ireland and a defender of democracy) but he is only a part of a much wider citizen based, and funded, No campaign.

Fervent Yes people just can't fathom the idea that the ordinary Irish citizens on the No side freely give their time and money to support what they believe in. There's no self dividend in this for the No people, the vested interest is all on the Yes side. Many Yes people will land handy numbers on Boards and committees . . Intel want a €1Bn EU fine reduced and Ryanair want to be allowed to buy AerLingus . . Pat Cox will be gifted the Irish Commissioner post . . IFA's Walshe, I suspect, will do a Parlon . . IBEC want to drive down wages and conditions . . the EU has become a gravy train and playground for political classes who view themselves as masters of the people . . last word to you ;)
 
Fervent Yes people just can't fathom the idea that the ordinary Irish citizens on the No side freely give their time and money to support what they believe in. ;)

Fervant No people just can't fathom the idea that the ordinary Irish citizens on the Yes side freely give their time and money to support what they believe in.
 
You either really believe that Ganley is a US puppet (hardly) or you don't believe it and are happy to push such a suggestion to further your own argument. I view Ganley as a patriot (a defender of the interests of the people of Ireland and a defender of democracy) but he is only a part of a much wider citizen based, and funded, No campaign.

Yes I do believe that, all available evidence strongly suggest his motives are not what is in the best interests of Irish democracy. I also feel that if Ganley is so interested in the current model of Irish democracy then don't hide behind loop holes to shield his foreign backers. I also feel that if Ganley was such a patriot and defender of Ireland, he'd manage to scrape together a few Irish investors.

And let's not forget the same Irish democracy that overwhelmingly distanced itself from Libertas in the European elections. You know that bit where Ganley is supposed to have said, "I'll accept the word of the Irish public and back off if they don't elect me or other Libertas candidates"? How'd that work out again? Damned Patriots, you just can't keep them down.

Or how about his respect for European democracy? You know the current system he says is ok, didn't work out to well for him there either. All these poor european citizens with no Referrendum had the chance to voice their opinions with a vote for Libertas. Again: how'd that work out? Again: where his respect for democracy there?

You say "hardly". That's fine and I'm more than willing to accept that my suspicions are baseless, but nobody seems to be able to give me actual evidence or a more convincing argument than: "well he just isn't, so there."

Fervent Yes people just can't fathom the idea that the ordinary Irish citizens on the No side freely give their time and money to support what they believe in. There's no self dividend in this for the No people, the vested interest is all on the Yes side.

Mpsox says it all. But don't come the downtrodden honest to god humble citizen root for all No campaginers. For some of the more ardent, their interests are politically and personally driven, not in the interests of everyone at large, but in the interest of their agenda.


Many Yes people will land handy numbers on Boards and committees . . Intel want a €1Bn EU fine reduced and Ryanair want to be allowed to buy AerLingus . . Pat Cox will be gifted the Irish Commissioner post . . IFA's Walshe, I suspect, will do a Parlon . . IBEC want to drive down wages and conditions . . the EU has become a gravy train and playground for political classes who view themselves as masters of the people . . last word to you ;)

And the support from unions is because...?

But again, point of clarification: It's not OK to feel Ganley has motives unrelated to Ireland, but it's ok to say everyone on the Yes side has?

And as to the last word, I'm happy to leave it the electorate tomorrow.
 
One thing that worries me.

The media keep on saying that Ganley's campaign is funded by loads of foreign business people, a lot who work in the financial sector.
To the best of my knowledge, there was one article in one newspaper showing that one donor to Libertas's UK MEP campaign was in the financial sector.

Where are all these other media reports you refer to?
 
For the welfare of Ireland can everyone please vote yes this time. Europe has been nothing but good for Ireland, do the right thing.
 
The Yes side campaign seems to be a smear campaign against No supporters i.e. Ganley et al. You have to ask the question as to why they are concentrating on a smear campaign rather than advocating the treaty itself? Ganley's background, whether or not he is funded by whoever etc. are of no relevance to the Constitutional decision we are making.
 
The Yes side campaign seems to be a smear campaign against No supporters i.e. Ganley et al. You have to ask the question as to why they are concentrating on a smear campaign rather than advocating the treaty itself? Ganley's background, whether or not he is funded by whoever etc. are of no relevance to the Constitutional decision we are making.

To be fair, you don't even have to launch a smear campaign against the majority or people out there advocating a 'No' vote. Joe Higgins, Patricia McKenna, Dana, Sinn Fein, Coir, UKIP, People Before Profit etc etc. Speaks for itself really.
 
Back
Top