Buying a diesel car nowadays

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Blackrock1 said:
not really, its the standard misinformed stuff around standing around to charge trying to get from A to B, worries about the longevity of car batteries etc.
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People worrying about things like that doesn't constitute misinformation though.
Blackrock1 said:
The most vocal anti EV posts come from people with zero experience of them, then peppered with stories about cars they heard that caught fire or someone was waiting 11 hours to charge somewhere.
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They didn't make any claims of such a nature though.
 
T McGibney said:
Care to elaborate?

There are only 2 claims of fact made in the post
  • the electricity used to power (electric vehicles) is mostly based on fossil fuel.
  • the batteries don't age well.
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No part of a car will last forever. In the same way as engine's need replacement parts or in some cases, replacement in it's entirety, we should expect that at some stage, we may need to swap out an electric car battery as well.

If anything, the fact that there are fewer mechanical things in electric cars to break/replace is a bonus

There is however, potentially a bigger issue then the use of fossil fuels to generate the electricity needed for charging and it's the use of other minerals such as lithium as part of the battery. That is a finate asset that the car and battery companies need to move away from this resources
 
Peanuts20 said:
No part of a car will last forever. In the same way as engine's need replacement parts or in some cases, replacement in it's entirety, we should expect that at some stage, we may need to swap out an electric car battery as well.
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Most cars don't need replacement engines until they're approaching normal end-of-useful-life. When someone buys a new car, they'd be rather alarmed to be told to expect that at some stage it may need a replacement engine.

Peanuts20 said:
There is however, potentially a bigger issue then the use of fossil fuels to generate the electricity needed for charging and it's the use of other minerals such as lithium as part of the battery. That is a finate asset that the car and battery companies need to move away from this resources
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Agreed.
 
Peanuts20 said:
There is however, potentially a bigger issue then the use of fossil fuels to generate the electricity needed for charging and it's the use of other minerals such as lithium as part of the battery. That is a finate asset that the car and battery companies need to move away from this resources
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Hopefully, when I come to replace my next diesel around 2040, I'll have skipped the heavy battery based electric cars and be able to get a green-hydrogen fuel-cell electric.
 
Saying that a disproportionate amount of EV's catch fire compared to ICE cars is beyond parody.
In the USA
For every 100,000 ICE cars sold in a year there will be 1500 car fires.
For every 100,000 BEV cars sold in a year there will be 25 car fires.
www.autoinsuranceez.com

Gas vs. Electric Car Fires [2024 Findings] | AutoinsuranceEZ.com

Auto fires result in hundreds of fatalities every year and millions of car recalls. Click here to see hybrid, gas, and electric car fire statistics.
www.autoinsuranceez.com www.autoinsuranceez.com

The point about pollution. There is no tail pipe in a BEV car. If you are walking or cycling or live next to a busy road, would you prefer a BEV to drive past you or a diesel/petrol spewing smoke out of its backside and into you and your kids lungs.

The point about using fossil fuels to power them. - Solar and wind power is growing at a good pace. As of right now this minute, 55% of Ireland's power is being generated by wind energy https://www.windenergy.ie/live/ https://www.smartgriddashboard.com/#all/generation

I see lots of houses installing solar too. If every house had solar we would have very little reliance on imported fuel.

But to the point about Diesel's, I bought a lowish mileage 5 year old one recently that I'll keep until it falls apart. ( I will use this for the mythical car journey from cork to Antrim without stopping that I'll never do). I don't foresee my next car purchase to be diesel, petrol or hybrid. We already have an 9 year old EV that does us for 80% of our needs ( School, , sports, shops, work) . Only need to charge it once or twice a week.
 
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I can’t find the post but there’s a long one on here about owning an EV. The extraordinary planning of journeys and time spent queueing at charging points having coffees and reading the paper etc was off putting. Until charging is as fast and obtainable as a 5 min diesel fill I won’t be joining the EV club anytime soon. The recent story I heard about one spontaneously going on fire is a legitimate one. Car companies love coming up with new models with x, y and z features. They are v good at getting people to part with their hard earned cash. I’m not immune. I bought one with keyless go the last time. Another bad idea /Gimmick. I see EV as just another marketing tool right now. While people are still flying by jet engine in their millions on a daily basis I see no benefit to the planet. One look at flight radar tells me the extra cost/hassle is just virtue signalling. Persuade me otherwise.
 
Mamamia22 said:
I can’t find the post but there’s a long one on here about owning an EV. The extraordinary planning of journeys and time spent queueing at charging points having coffees and reading the paper etc was off putting. Until charging is as fast and obtainable as a 5 min diesel fill I won’t be joining the EV club anytime soon. The recent story I heard about one spontaneously going on fire is a legitimate one. Car companies love coming up with new models with x, y and z features. They are v good at getting people to part with their hard earned cash. I’m not immune. I bought one with keyless go the last time. Another bad idea /Gimmick. I see EV as just another marketing tool right now. While people are still flying by jet engine in their millions on a daily basis I see no benefit to the planet. One look at flight radar tells me the extra cost/hassle is just virtue signalling. Persuade me otherwise.
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I cant believe you have to goto a petrol station and wait around flammable liquid to refuel your car, i just plug mine in once a week at home and never have to leave my driveway to refuel.....

The fire story is an anecdote and not statistically relevant.

and as for the end of your post, why bother doing anything to decrease carbon emissions if thats the case?
 
T McGibney said:
Most cars don't need replacement engines until they're approaching normal end-of-useful-life. When someone buys a new car, they'd be rather alarmed to be told to expect that at some stage it may need a replacement engine.


Agreed.
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Car batteries are generally represented to last circa 200,000 miles or 15-20 years. They will degrade in this time for sure, but most ICE engines do as well. I think thats plenty long enough, you dont see very many 15-year-old cars on the road any more.
 
Blackrock1 said:
Car batteries are generally represented to last circa 200,000 miles or 15-20 years. They will degrade in this time for sure, but most ICE engines do as well. I think thats plenty long enough, you dont see very many 15-year-old cars on the road any more.
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Replacing an ICE car battery is no big deal as they're not expensive. There are plenty of 15-year-old cars on the road.
 
T McGibney said:
Care to elaborate?

There are only 2 claims of fact made in the post
  • the electricity used to power (electric vehicles) is mostly based on fossil fuel.
  • the batteries don't age well.
Click to expand...
Misinformation isn't just the statement of untrue facts though, it can be using a fact/statistic incorrectly or in a misleading way, surrounding a fact in misleading information so as to change the implication of the fact, confusing causation/correlation and a bunch of other things.

  • Fact: the electricity used to power (electric vehicles) is mostly based on fossil fuel
  • Misinformation: the electricity used to power them is mostly based on fossil fuel makes the whole thing a nonsense
Small ICE engines convert ~30% of fossil fuels burned into motion, large centralised power stations convert ~60% (edited my incorrect 90% figure here sorry!) of fossil fuels burned into electricity and EVs convert over 90% of that electricity into motion. There are a bunch of scientific studies out there that have proven that even on some of the most polluting coal-burning electricity grids EVs release less CO2 than ICE cars over their lifetimes. Even ignoring CO2 though, ICE engines burn fossil fuel in places where people walk/work/live, centralised power stations typically do it around far less people and this really matters because the likes of particulate matter and NOX emissions are highly localised, just a few meters makes a big difference to your exposure.



  • Fact: cars catch fire
  • Misinformation: I’ve just heard of an EV going on fire in a friends driveway. Tricky to put out apparently plus the cost of the fire brigade. Not nice during Christmas hols. The car is written off and lucky house didn’t catch fire into the bargain. I’ll stick with the tried and trusted.
The clear implication is that you should stick with tried/trusted ICE cars because EVs are a fire hazard. However a study from the US insurance industry shows that electric cars catch fire at a rate of 25 per 100k sales while petrol/diesel catch fire at a rate of 1529 per 100k and hybrids 3474 per 100k. If you would prefer to own a car that won't catch fire on you the data suggests you need to steer well clear of anything with petrol/diesel on-board.



  • Fact: Modern EV batteries degrade over time, at a rate of ~1% per year
  • Misinformation: I have no faith in the longevity of a car battery. I have heard enough scare stories to put me off. Based on my experience with phone and laptop lithium batteries they don’t age well. If they can’t get them right for a small item like a phone then how long will they remain efficient in a car without needing to be replaced?
The clear implication being that EV batteries age at similar rates to phone/laptop batteries, which we all know tend to last 5 years or so before you start thinking that a new battery would make life much easier. The reality is there are thousands of different types of lithium-ion batteries out there using different form factors, chemistries, management systems etc; some of these might only survive a single charge cycle over a couple of weeks, others are designed to last thousands over many years. Another example of the comparison issue here would be e-cigarettes, many use the 18650 lithium battery and last 6 months, Tesla use ~8000 18650 lithium batteries in their EVs but don't need to replace them every 6 months.
To throw in a real-world example, I have an 8 year old Nissan Leaf. Basically the first generation of modern electric vehicles and Nissan made some poor decisions in-terms of lithium battery chemistry and how use/charging is managed, really doesn't get much worse than the older Nissan Leafs. But the battery is still at >80% of its useable capacity. So even this worst-of-the-worst EV is not going to need a battery replacement before the rest of the car has fallen to pieces. There are certainly batteries failing and getting replaced in EVs, just as the odd ICE engine needs to be replaced, but it is misinformation to imply that the average person is in any way likely to experience this just because their iPhone is toast after 4-5 years.


Sorry for the length of that and sorry for dissecting your posts @Mamamia22, I know this is just stuff you've read and are repeating without malicious intent.
 
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Mamamia22 said:
I see EV as just another marketing tool right now. While people are still flying by jet engine in their millions on a daily basis I see no benefit to the planet. One look at flight radar tells me the extra cost/hassle is just virtue signalling. Persuade me otherwise.
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There's a 1.5km road between the estate I live in and a local primary school. It's bumper to bumper every morning before the start of school. There are kids walking for 15 minutes every day to and from school breathing in toxic fumes along that road.

Can you see how the planet would benefit if fossil fuel cars in this scenario are replaced all over the world?
 
Clean energy, EVs, better living standards due to less fossil fuel pollution, less noise. Ah yes. Those good old Victorian standards of living. Thank you Tesla.
 
PGF2016 said:
Clean energy, EVs, better living standards due to less fossil fuel pollution, less noise. Ah yes. Those good old Victorian standards of living. Thank you Tesla.
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Yep. Clean alright. For you.
www.theguardian.com

Child labour, toxic leaks: the price we could pay for a greener future

Our mission to create cleaner living using natural resources could itself cause widespread environmental harm, scientists now warn
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

earthjournalism.net

Millions die as most Indians still cook with wood and dung

Over two-thirds of Indians still burn wood and dung-based fuel for cooking, leading to a million deaths a year from indoor pollution
earthjournalism.net earthjournalism.net
 
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I walk my kids to school through those fumes in all weathers, wear wet gear etc. Most parents are too lazy to get out of their cars and prefer to waste time and fuel whilst they eagerly flick at their phones rather than chat with their kids while they walk. I see them happily bumper to bumper like sheep inhaling the fumes into their cars without realising it. The same parents who like to check on their step count using their expensive lithium fuelled watches. I figure the toxins from exhausts are less concentrated outside in the open air. Maybe I’m wrong but I prefer to walk. I don’t believe the filtration system in a car removes all those toxins. We are living in a messed up world. However Im not about to shell out for the cost of a new EV and the fixtures required in my driveway plus solar panels right now. I recycle as much as I can but wonder if it’s actually worthwhile as most of the stuff is shipped long distance somewhere. I don’t buy unnecessary stuff I don’t need. I wear clothes until they have holes. I don’t go to Lanzarote for a long weekend etc. I won’t be pushed into an EV by expensive marketing and biased studies until I’m ready to thanks. Remember the emissions scandal. Be careful on the data from car manufacturers.
 
Mamamia22 said:
I walk my kids to school through those fumes in all weathers, wear wet gear etc. Most parents are too lazy to get out of their cars and prefer to waste time and fuel whilst they eagerly flick at their phones rather than chat with their kids while they walk. I see them happily bumper to bumper like sheep inhaling the fumes into their cars without realising it. The same parents who like to check on their step count using their expensive lithium fuelled watches. I figure the toxins from exhausts are less concentrated outside in the open air. Maybe I’m wrong but I prefer to walk. I don’t believe the filtration system in a car removes all those toxins. We are living in a messed up world. However Im not about to shell out for the cost of a new EV and the fixtures required in my driveway plus solar panels right now. I recycle as much as I can but wonder if it’s actually worthwhile as most of the stuff is shipped long distance somewhere. I don’t buy unnecessary stuff I don’t need. I wear clothes until they have holes. I don’t go to Lanzarote for a long weekend etc. I won’t be pushed into an EV by expensive marketing and biased studies until I’m ready to thanks. Remember the emissions scandal. Be careful on the data from car manufacturers.
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so instead you will endeavor to buy as new a diesel at the last opportunity and drive it as long as you can, how virtuous.
Humour me for a moment, what kind of annual mileage do you do that makes an EV so unsuitable?
 
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