Very bad behaviour at Mass for First Holy Communion.

[TarfHead]

.. the head told me that the school has a strong catholic ethos and is not required to accomodate non-faith children, though they do strive to be inclusive to different faiths (umm, helpful)

..

I am not happy with this at all and will be persuing it further. I don't believe that anybody would be happy with that if it was their child

You evidently hold a very strong opinion about this. Pity you weren't more forceful when deciding on which school to send your child to. Maybe you chose convenience over principle ?

Maybe I'm being unfairly judgemental but, having being through this process myself, I have little sympathy for parents who want the world to spin on their demands. If there is no multi-denominational school near you, then you've a choice to make. But once you have made that choice, get on with it.

My children attend the local national school which has a Roman Catholic ethos. For those who have issue with this, there is an Educate Together school not too far away. I know of many parents who have chosen to send their children to the national school, even though they are not Catholic. They could have opted for the Educate Together, but opted for the national school because of location, educational standard, friendships, etc.

 

[bren1916]

Ok - simple solution as mentioned already is to move rather than have the Catholic Church/State and everyne else change to suit your particular needs and beliefs.

 

[TarfHead]

How dare you accuse me of choosing convenience when we have no choices?

I didn't accuse you.

.. if they are forced by the education system to be catholic by default.

Where has this happened ? I am not aware of any child being 'forced' into the Catholic faith by the education system.

 

[S.L.F]

How on earth can he make his own mind up on religion if he is given hours of religious instruction every week from one particular religion? What a bizarre suggestion. In that case shouldn't we let all children make their own minds up, and don't teach any one particular religion in schools? Which to my mind would be ideal. Thats exactly what I want for my children, to learn about all religions and faiths and make up their own minds, which they are not allowed to do if they are forced by the education system to be catholic by default.

You have no idea what my views on religion are, as I have not mentioned them here. It is insulting to me and demeaning to yourself to jump to such conclusions.

Just to clarify you are sending your son to a Catholic school and think they should teach him other religions so he can make his own mind up in a few years.....what a bizarre idea.

The reality is your child is getting no less education than the rest of the kids in the school.

I know most kids just want to be part of the pack, they don't like to be singled out, to be the only one, the reason he is the only one is because you have decided it is so, and the school has nowhere else to put him so he has to stay in the class.

Besides what actual harm would it do to your son, would he be forced to walk coals or have his back frayed

What difference would it be to have him doing the classes?

 

[mathepac]

... Thats exactly what I want for my children, to learn about all religions and faiths and make up their own minds, which they are not allowed to do if they are forced by the education system to be catholic by default...

As previously pointed out, you have choices.

Either :

• Send your child to a multi- or non-denominational school
  • by moving house if access to an appropriate school is a problem
  • by sending them as a boarder
  • by establishing your own local school
• Invest in materials relating to "about all religions and faiths" and ask the schools permission for your child to use these while the class-mates have RE / RK

The above suggestions are based on the old "put your money where your mouth is" test of principle or strongly held beliefs.

As any and all reasonable suggestions seem to generate more heat than light in your most recent responses, I have no expectation that you will find any of my suggestions attractive either.

 

[TarfHead]

You did of course, you said "Pity you weren't more forceful when deciding on which school to send your child to. Maybe you chose convenience over principle ?"

Maybe ? As in, a suggestion ? Not an accusation.

.. what do you call that except forcing religious participation?

Well, I don't call it ..

forced by the education system to be catholic

It's a school with a Catholic ethos. How did you think that would be manifest ?

 

[casiopea]

And the idea that a catholic school could teach pupils about different religions? How bizarre in this day and age! What are they afraid of exactly?

That has been discussed - it probably wont be introduced as early as primary school cycles as (as you have pointed out yourself) there is so much to learn in the basics of our RE that needs to be learnt first before learning world religions. It has been discussed for secondary schools along with introducing theology as a state exam subject (and thats a whole other debate).

Like I said, isn't it easy to give suggestions when you are not in the minority, or are lucky enough to have a suitable school place for your children.

And its also very easy to moan and do the poor-me routine. You do have many choices jaybird but its easier to knock them down and critize than to do something active about them. You keep talking about selling your house - you dont have to sell your house to move - rent it. I know you will post back with some reason why you cant - its easier to do that than to uproot everyone - I know. Over here on most of the expat lists some parents bemoan that their children are being "forced" to learn in swiss german (as oppose to high german or better yet english) - they act like its some travesty being visited apon them (imagine being taught in the mother tongue of the country - disgraceful ). Many of us are minorities in different things - but we (thankfully) have choices even if we arent crazy about them.

Good luck with what ever you decide and best of luck to your son and his education.

 

[Firefly]

I That is because nothing is more important than my childs education.

Hi Jaybird, just wondering, what's the non-religious education like at the school? Surely if this is very good then maybe it might be better to let your son get on with it. You can then explain your beliefs when at home and encourage him to make up his own mind (which may be different to yours).

F

 

[Padraigb]

I think there has been as much bad behaviour in this thread as there was at the Communion Mass that Romulan posted about.

We cannot manage life without accommodating the various needs and wishes of people who want different things. It is not reasonable to expropriate church-owned schools; it is not affordable to set up multi-denominational an/or non-denominational schools within easy reach of everybody (not to mention the gaeilscoil question); it is not fair to demand that people move home because they don't have access to their preferred type of school.

So we get by the best way we can.

There might be a point in the DES making the funding of any school contingent on its being willing to make some reasonable effort to meet the needs of pupils of different denominations, or none. But it would be pushing it beyond reasonableness to require that a school abandon its denominational character.

It seems to me reasonable that where places in a school are limited, priority be given to children who adhere to the faith that the school has been set up to support.

 

[homeowner]

You have not been listening to the reality if you think I can just move to gain a place. I've looked into, I would be willing. Anywhere we could move to that was even remotely commutable for work have long waiting lists, we would have to have been on the waiting list years ago. Thats not apathetic poor me not being willing to sacrifice for my ideals, its the unavoidable fact that there is no place available. Thats the point. I am willing to be attacked for many things, but please do not underestimate the time, effort and money I have invested to explore all options. And I am unfortunatly left with none. Sometimes, despite our best efforts (and I truly defy anyone with a complete lack of resources in this climate to try any harder than I have ) we don't have any options.

I agree with you 100%. I think most people dont realise the lack of choice available if you dont want to send your children to a catholic (or any other "religious" school). The vast majority of schools in Ireland are christian ethos schools paid for by the state (even the private ones).

I look forward to the day when schools will be completely secular and parents who want religious instruction for their children have the choice to organise those extra classes.

 

[mick1960]

The best education you can get is in Catholic school because they are funded by the Catholic church,so if your education is being funded by an organisation you have to listen to them.If the State stopped their part funding of the Catholic schools who would take their place?Also it sounds they should have lessons on how to behave at Holy Communion's

 

[mick1960]

I went to a Catholic school,because my parents could not afford the independent schools in the area,and the State schools had far lower exam scores.The Christian brothers were trained by the Church and paid for by the Church and had devoted their life to the Church.But thinking back on these years I must say they did seem to talk a lot about Catholic things and God.
Do you think there is a connection?

 

[homeowner]

The best education you can get is in Catholic school because they are funded by the Catholic church,so if your education is being funded by an organisation you have to listen to them.If the State stopped their part funding of the Catholic schools who would take their place?Also it sounds they should have lessons on how to behave at Holy Communion's

I dont think anyone is suggesting that the state stop funding schools. The hope is that the catholic churchs bows out of state funded education, hands schools over to the state to be secular run (which I think will happen here eventually) and have the church take the role of giving religious lessons alongside other faiths on a paid per class basis by parents or organise religion classes (similar to Sunday school idea in church of ireland)

 

[mick1960]

I dont think anyone is suggesting that the state stop funding schools. The hope is that the catholic churchs bows out of state funded education, hands schools over to the state to be secular run .

That would be Great if the State could buy the property off them,or build Schools.That will only happen when the Vatican bank runs out of money,so it might happen soon.

 

[mick1960]

Posted in error

 

[homeowner]

That would be Great if the State could buy the property off them,or build Schools.That will only happen when the Vatican bank runs out of money,so it might happen soon.

Some school land was bequethed to religious orders going back years and they are precluded from selling it. Certainly true of 2 local schools where I grew up - the nuns tried to sell them off but were prevented from doing so by the school boards. I can imagine this is true of other schools around the country.

I can see the state renting the school land off the church to get around this legality. The state keeps schools open anyway, it funds improvements, new buildings, sports facilities etc...or in most cases money is raised by parents. Its been a long time since the church paid a cent into schools in ireland even private schools get their funding from a combination of school fees and the state.

 

[mick1960]

Sounds very unjust jaybird.

 

[S.L.F]

But doesn't the state own both the land and the buildings, for some schools at least? The new school in our area was built on private land bought with state money and built with state money. My taxes went into paying for that school, why shouldn't it be as open to me as to anyone else?
Thats a part I really have trouble understanding.

How is it closed to you?

 

[Simeon]

People in the Dingle penninsula also pay taxes ......... is it open to them?

 

[Padraigb]

But doesn't the state own both the land and the buildings, for some schools at least?

Generally speaking, the state does not own the land and buildings.

The new school in our area was built on private land bought with state money and built with state money.

It's more usual for the land to be provided by trustees (typically a church or a religious order; more recently an organisation such as Educate Together) and the state paying a contribution towards building costs (usually a high percentage of the total cost).

My taxes went into paying for that school, why shouldn't it be as open to me as to anyone else?
Thats a part I really have trouble understanding.

Because, whether you like it or not, the school is private.