Very bad behaviour at Mass for First Holy Communion.

[bullbars]

There is also the pressure the child exerts on the parents, which comes from the school and classmates and wanting to be the same as everybody else, which the Church will milk for all it's worth.

How exactly will the church "milk" this for all its worth? Will the Priest encourage all the other children to stay away from the outcast? Nonsense.

 

[liaconn]

With respect, if all the people who didn't really believe in it, or didn't take it seriously were excluded from sacraments, there would be a lot of nearly empty churches, with few communions and even less weddings!

HC may be an intergral part of the school year for the majority, but for what reasons? Why does it have to take up most of the year? And if they do not make provision for those who do not want to be involved, is it ok for them to be discriminated against because they are in the minority? What happened to equality of education for all children? Doesn't exist from what I can see.

How are they being discriminated against? You seem to expect everything to be changed around to suit you, regardless of the fact that the majority of parents appear to be happy with current arrangements.

Also, you seem to be implying that the Church just wants full pews, regardless of whether people are there with any real belief. Why would they want that?

 

[liaconn]

You don't think a non christian child attending a catholic school is discriminated against when he is told to sit alone in the back of the class for hours per week for months on end? Seriously? I had the odd idea that I sent my child to school to learn things, not to be ignored while the school did the job of the church.

I don't expect anything to be changed (though I would honestly prefer that sacrament instruction is done outside of core school hours). I think if the majority of people really want to do things like HC prep within school then fair enough. But are you telling me that I am unreasonable to expect that a provision is made for my child that does not involve putting him in the corner and ignoring him for half the year? The attitude that if the majority are happy then the minority can go swing is prevalent, though deeply discriminatory.

And I'm not implying anything about what the church wants, I wouldn't have the faintest idea about that. But you must admit that on a HC day, the church will be full of people that haven't been there since the christening, and before that, the wedding. The numbers of people who make a big fuss about the sacraments is hardly representative of those who attend mass every sunday, is it?

The problem there is that a lot of parents, who don't practice their religion, are not expressing a wish not to have their child included. If they did, it would be practical for the school to make arrangements for all of these children to engage in a different activity during Holy Communion preparation. As your child is the only one, there is very little the school can do. As I've said already, the Church are in a difficult position. If they refused to let children whose parents don't practice to make their Communion they would be lambasted from a height.

But at the moment, the bottom line is that your child appears to be the only one not making Communion so what can the school do? Change the whole system around to suit you? Set up a special class just for him?

 

[liaconn]

They could guarantee him a place in a multi-denominational school, so the problem doesn't arise in the first place.

It doesn't matter what size minority a child is in, a provision should be made. Its only one child, so it doesn't matter? When does it matter? 2, 5, 10? At what point do you say we will do something for children not of the majority religion? Every child deserves proper attention and education from their school, and not a single child should be give the lesson that they are unimportant and do not matter because they are not of the religion. And by not making any provision for that child that is exactly what you are saying.

Its the scale of it I object to. Its literally hours per week for months before the communion. It seems that in that year they do little else than HC. Am I seriously in the wrong that I expect that when my child is sent to school he is actually taught something? And if the majority don't even practice the religion, isn't it rather a sham anyway?

I agree he should have access to a multi-denominational school and you should not be forced to send him to a Catholic School if you are not Catholic.

I don't agree that Catholic schools should be asked to cease teaching religion because it doesn't suit a small number of non-catholics whose children go there. In your case, you seem to have no option. But there are many,many cases where parents find the local Catholic school more convenient than travelling a little bit further to a multi-denominational school, and then demand that the school fit itself around their needs and I find that objectionable.

I accept that you don't appear to be in that category though.

 

[casiopea]

I agree with you liaconn. I think Catholic schools should be completely free to teach religion and prepare for sacraments. I just think that the utmost priority should be on providing fair and equal access to education for all children, and that not even one child loses out because s/he is not of a particular religion.

But how is that child losing out jaybird? He/she doesnt attend the religious class on the request of the parents but does attend all other classes. I remember 2 girls when we did FHC got to play with their Sindys at the back of the class while the rest of us had to learn, we were all very jealous(!) however for the rest of the day they attended class as normal. He or she isnt losing out on anything from what I can see - unless Im missing something in your point?

 

[Bubbly Scot]

I put my daughter to a catholic school even though she isn't being raised as a practising catholic. Given the choice to make communion she chose not to. Her school never once treated her differently. She took part in all the preparation and enjoyed it, there was no issue whatsoever. While I would have liked her to make communion it was never pushed on her and she sometimes recieves a blessing (arms crossed over her chest) from the priest.

We live in a predominantly catholic country and attend church for school functions, at least she knows how to behave, respond etc.

It never crossed my mind or her teachers to exclude her from any catholic teachings.

 

[Teatime]

Perhaps if you were non-catholic you may not be that bothered, and may join in to a limited extent. But we are non-christian, staunchly atheistic, and we are faced with being in a position of having religious instruction practically forced on our children, because you can only opt out to a very limited extent.

Let me reiterate, I have no real objection to religious teaching in schools (in an ideal world I would prefer not, but practically speaking), and I appreciate that the majority is either actually catholic or happy to go along with catholic teaching. What I cannot understand is that in this day and age there is no option available to a non-catholic family to have their beliefs and needs respected in terms of equal access to education.

Fair play to you jaybird. I agree with you completely.

 

[DavyJones]

Let me reiterate, I have no real objection to religious teaching in schools (in an ideal world I would prefer not, but practically speaking), and I appreciate that the majority is either actually catholic or happy to go along with catholic teaching. What I cannot understand is that in this day and age there is no option available to a non-catholic family to have their beliefs and needs respected in terms of equal access to education.

Talking about equal access to education, should other faiths not have the same rights? Should they not be forced to attend a catholic school?. Should we have Jewish schools etc?

We live in a democracy where majority rule. That majority is largely catholic so until that changes I can't see schools to suit minorities being common place.

 

[DavyJones]

Since when is it the right of the majority, who in all honesty are only nominally Catholic, to force religious instruction on those of different faiths, or of no faith at all? Are you seriously suggesting its a case of tough luck for something as important as education of our children?

Thats exactly what I am saying. Unless you haven't noticed, we can barely afford the schools we do have, never mind supporting more.

Where would you plan on having these schools? Large urban areas? What about people in rural areas, would it be tough luck for them?

 

[Padraigb]

Talking about equal access to education, should other faiths not have the same rights? Should they not be forced to attend a catholic school?. Should we have Jewish schools etc?

We have them.

What we don't have, unless I blinked and missed something, is non-denominational schools (and if there are any, they are very few).

 

[DavyJones]

We have them.

What we don't have, unless I blinked and missed something, is non-denominational schools (and if there are any, they are very few).

Yes, but is it fair that my Jewish neighbours have to drive 40 miles to the school.Should they not have a right to have one as a local amenity?

Thats a feeble excuse in the extreme. Religious intolerance is fine because we're a bit strapped for cash? Bigotry costs less money than inclusive education, so lets be the most backwards nation in Europe for yet one more thing?

Not good enough.

But it has to be good enough as that is the reality. It would be great to live in a country where everyone could be catered for but we don't.

My neice and nephew go to a multi-denominational school as their parents have no respective faiths. They are not thought anything religious, would this suit you?

Back to an earlier question, where would you site these schools and how many do you think the country would need?

 

[truthseeker]

Also, you seem to be implying that the Church just wants full pews, regardless of whether people are there with any real belief. Why would they want that?

Bums on pews who contribute financially to the church, collection plate, payment for baptisms, weddings, funerals, church envelope etc...

Organised religion is not about whether or not the people have any real belief, it is about power, money and the control of the 'masses'. I would also think its about the control of the fertility of women (rules around sex outside of marriage etc...).

As for religious instruction in primary schools - its indoctrination plain and simple. Which is fine if you are a Catholic yourself and want your child indoctrinated, but not so good if you are an atheist or another faith who has little choice about primary school for your child and you end up with a child wasting hours a week while the indoctrination takes place.

 

[DavyJones]

And if you are seriously suggesting that Ireland is in such a bad economic position that we cannot afford a fair basic education for our children, then we should all just give up now.

Or move closer to your second choice school, maybe? If your childrens education mean that much to you, it would be a small thing to do

or

Do you serouisly want a school built close to you so your children can attend with minimal fuss to yourself?

What about the atheist famliy living on the Aran Islands, their children have the same right to education as mine and yours do. Should we build them a school?

My point being where do you stop and what kind of a demand for these schools is there?

You should be happy that the rest of your community have a new school and don't be begrudging them.

 

[casiopea]

You may disagree, but I see that as losing out. If for an hour a day, 5 days a week, one child is put in the corner of the room to sit alone, while the teacher gives their attention to the other children. If one child is isolated, and is not taught anything for 5 hours a week, while other children are? What about entire mornings when they go to mass, or entire afternoons dedicated to HC rehearsals?

And what about Easter and Christmas, and other catholic holidays? How many hours will be spent on nativitys and religious songs and prayers and even artwork of religious iconography? How do we opt out of all of that?

Perhaps if you were non-catholic you may not be that bothered, and may join in to a limited extent. But we are non-christian, staunchly atheistic, and we are faced with being in a position of having religious instruction practically forced on our children, because you can only opt out to a very limited extent.

Let me reiterate, I have no real objection to religious teaching in schools (in an ideal world I would prefer not, but practically speaking), and I appreciate that the majority is either actually catholic or happy to go along with catholic teaching. What I cannot understand is that in this day and age there is no option available to a non-catholic family to have their beliefs and needs respected in terms of equal access to education.

But there are schools in Ireland that cater for non-catholics (Educate together or something - I think?). You may say there isnt one near you and you have to send your children to a local catholic school which is fair enough but your statement above is incorrect I believe - there are options for non-practicing families.

Also you refer to entire mornings above where children go to mass - we never went to mass during our primary school day and when I did go a secondary school (taught by nuns) mass was always before school started - before first class. There were a couple rehearsals for FHC but literally a couple very near the event itself and as for Christmas and Easter you refer to above we always had very long holidays around those events which both Catholics and non-Catholics enjoyed. With all due respect I think you are exaggerating.

Finally my secondary school was a very very active hockey playing school. Took place in all the tournaments, won all the cups, was written up all the time in local newspapers. Im not going off topic - my point is those of us who were useless at hockey (and sports in general) were thoroughly ignored. We were the ones in the back of the class playing with our Sindys. While it wasnt 5 hours a week every week. It was about 2 hours a week every week for 6 years. What Im trying to say is schools can not accomadate all students all the time. This religion issue could be sorted out and your child may be ignored for a certain period of time every week for a completely different reason. Is it fair - no ok it is not. Will it continue to happen - yes, you cannot cater to all of the people all of the time.

 

[DavyJones]

I am delighted that the community has a new school, I don't begrudge them at all. I just have this bizarre notion that a school should try to be inclusive and accomodate ALL of the children of the area, when those children have no choice to attend.
Is it really such a terrible thing to ask for?

Not terrible at all. I am looking at this from a practical point of view. Lets say every school across the country was non religious. RE was an after school activity. Would you think it reasonable to have 95% of the schools pupils to have to be unsettled to satisfy the other 5%?

Bad time to sell your home and buy an other? That is as real as the lack of money to maintain existing schools nevermind building new ones. As unfair as it is, majority rules.

 

[BoscoTalking]

We all know its wrong, and we all know its not simply a matter of money. The catholic churches control of the vast majority of Irish schools has to change. And it will.

in all fairness - WE all don't think this...

 

[DavyJones]

Nowhere near 95% of pupils are practicing Catholics. If anything its the other way around. The real problem is that the vast majority of people just go along with it.

Where I live, I can safely say the large majority of kids going to schools are from catholic families, lasped or otherwise

It doesn't matter how little money is available, its about attitude, not cash. And the attitude who say that non-catholic kids just don't count is appalling.

Again the reality is, there is no money. It's exactly the same reason why you can't move house, money.

I do see where you are coming from but in mind it isn't practical, as I have asked before, how many of these schools would we need and where would they be placed?

Most people probably don't care enough for it to happen, I know I don't. I would rather see my money spent on a health care system that actually works for all the people.

Your child will be exposed to religion everyday no matter where they go to school. they will celebrate Christmas and Easter and all the other holidays that go with it.

If I had your beliefs, I would either move (unpractical) or find the best school in the area and just have them excluded from RE. The free time could be spent doing extra studying, exercises.

 

[casiopea]

With due respect, all schools are different, and I have my information directly from the head teacher of the school. I am not exagerating at all.

There are options for non-practicing families, but not enough to meet demand, nowhere near. ET schools are vastly over-subscribed, while many catholic schools have places to burn. A little re-distribution of wealth would make a huge difference very quickly.

Move closer to the school? Good plan, now if only I could sell my house for anything remotely what I paid for it..........

I don't understand the justification going on here. We all know its wrong, and we all know its not simply a matter of money. The catholic churches control of the vast majority of Irish schools has to change. And it will. Unfortunately my son will be a casualty of an education system that sees him as less important than a catholic child.

Yes all schools are different, you may have a gripe with your current school that there is too much focus on RE, you may have a gripe with a different school that they dont focus enough on maths.

Unfortunately my son will be a casualty of an education system that sees him as less important than a catholic child.

This statement really bothers me. How is your son a "casualty" and less important than a catholic child just because he is going to a school that teaches RE? If you are being serious then there is a bigger problem here than whether or not RE should be taught in schools and you need to contact the board of Education (or whatever authorities - but higher than that schools principal) about your childs case. However from what I understand your child is being accomadated, not discrimated against, by not having to attend RE. Otherwise he attends all other classes as normal and has the same education going forward into secondary school as every other child in that school - catholic or not. Insinuating otherwise is a very serious allegation.

Even as a practicing catholic I would not want my child attending mass during the school day or "extra" time spent on RE to the detrement of any other subject. In the same way I wouldnt want extra time spent on geography to the detrement of maths. If you feel this is happening in your son^s school then talk to other parents, you will find them very reasonable about wanting to talk to the school principal/board about the balance of RE to other subjects.

We all know its wrong

Not too sure what you are basing this statement on but from what I can see on this thread many people do not see it as wrong, myself included.

 

[liaconn]

Bums on pews who contribute financially to the church, collection plate, payment for baptisms, weddings, funerals, church envelope etc...

.

Believe me, the Church do not want people trivialising their sacraments just because they'll hand an envelope into the Sacristy at the end, or throw a couple of euro into the collection basket. I think they're quite concerned about children being presented for baptism, Communion, Confirmation etc when there is no real intention on the part of the parents of rearing these children as practising Catholics.

 

[bren1916]

He is not allowed to leave the class when RE is being taught. If I will not allow him to be intsructed, he has to sit at the back of the class alone and wait until the next lesson starts. He will not be given an alternative activity as this is deemed to be disruptive to the rest of the class. .

You could - of course, allow your child to make his own mind up about Religion and resist imposing your clearly negative views on Religion on him?
You never know - he might actually find some comfort in believing that there is a God out there who loves him....