People who don't realise how good they have it: ATC Vs DAA dispute.

[Complainer]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Financially... none. Employers have to pay compensation for any wrongdoing on their part. For example, If they had not paid an allowance that should have been paid then the employer would have to pay arrears. However the reverse does not happen.

In relation to whom they should pay compensation to, they should not only have to compensate the company but also the intending passengers on that day, the airlines and companies whoses exports were tried up that day. If they were forced to do this then I think they would spend a little more time examing options the next time they have a dispute rather than calling a snap strike and practically shutting down the countries airports.

So when management force unnecessary strikes by taking precipitive actions while negotiations are still in progress, I presume you'd like to hold them personally responsible for the costs of any disruption too - right?

 

[gunnerfitzy]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I would expect that the board of management to be answerable to the relevant minister and face sanctions up to and including dismissal for all decisions that they make. If that would happen in all semi state companies then we wouldn't have situations like in FAS.

 

[Complainer]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I would expect that the board of management to be answerable to the relevant minister and face sanctions up to and including dismissal for all decisions that they make. If that would happen in all semi state companies then we wouldn't have situations like in FAS.

Bit of a different expectation there, compared to your expectation for unions to be responsible for consequential losses - why the double-standard?

 

[gunnerfitzy]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Because unions are not a part of the organisational structure of a company. They are an organisation external to the company itself. I would like to see personal responsibility taken at both employee and managment level. Managers and workers should answer personally for their decisions. Unfortunately you can't sanction individuals because a union voted to go out on strike for what was later proven to be unnecessary and unwarrented reasons. But you can sanction management.

 

[Complainer]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Because unions are not a part of the organisational structure of a company. They are an organisation external to the company itself. I would like to see personal responsibility taken at both employee and managment level. Managers and workers should answer personally for their decisions. Unfortunately you can't sanction individuals because a union voted to go out on strike for what was later proven to be unnecessary and unwarrented reasons. But you can sanction management.

No offence, but it sounds like you don't know how strikes work. Strike decisions are not made by unions. The decision to strike (or not) are made by a vote of union members. They may be supported or advised by the union, the decision is down to the members themselves.

So if you want to hold unions financially responsible for consequential losses arising from a strike, you'll also need to hold IBEC or legal advisers or Dept Finance (whoever is advising management) financially responsible on the other side.

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

No offence, but it sounds like you don't know how strikes work. Strike decisions are not made by unions. The decision to strike (or not) are made by a vote of union members. They may be supported or advised by the union, the decision is down to the members themselves.

So if you want to hold unions financially responsible for consequential losses arising from a strike, you'll also need to hold IBEC or legal advisers or Dept Finance (whoever is advising management) financially responsible on the other side.

No offence, but it sounds like you do

 

[gunnerfitzy]

Apologies for my ambiguity. I do realise that strikes are voted on by the members of the union. However should that vote be carried it is all union members walk off the job if I am not mistaken. What happens when a union member votes no to strike action but the vote is carried?
To me that means the unions have much more than an advisory role.

 

[MOB]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

So when management force unnecessary strikes by taking precipitive actions while negotiations are still in progress, I presume you'd like to hold them personally responsible for the costs of any disruption too - right?

Eh - just a quick reminder of how unions work; members vote and decide whether or not to strike. I don't think management can actually force people to strike.

Joking aside, I am sure that situations could arise where union members have no reasonable option but to strike. But I don't think it is right to characterise this as having been one of those situations.

 

[gunnerfitzy]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Eh - just a quick reminder of how unions work; members vote and decide whether or not to strike. I don't think management can actually force people to strike.

Joking aside, I am sure that situations could arise where union members have no reasonable option but to strike. But I don't think it is right to characterise this as having been one of those situations.

Completely agree

 

[Complainer]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Eh - just a quick reminder of how unions work; members vote and decide whether or not to strike. I don't think management can actually force people to strike.

Joking aside, I am sure that situations could arise where union members have no reasonable option but to strike.

As you noted, there are situations where management provoke a strike, and leave staff with no other reasonable option.

But I don't think it is right to characterise this as having been one of those situations.

Just for the record, this wasn't a strike. This was a meeting for union members called during the less busy hours of the day to discuss suspensions of staff by management on issues that were going before the Labour Court at the time. Management escalated, union responded.

 

[Purple]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

As you noted, there are situations where management provoke a strike, and leave staff with no other reasonable option.


Just for the record, this wasn't a strike. This was a meeting for union members called during the less busy hours of the day to discuss suspensions of staff by management on issues that were going before the Labour Court at the time. Management escalated, union responded.

They aren’t paid to call or attend union meetings. If they want to have such discussions they should do so on their own time. Since they did have their meeting on company time (rather than doing their job) they were, in effect, on strike.
It has now been agreed that the ATC staff who were suspended for refusing to do their job were in the wrong. Since they were in the wrong their managers were correct to suspend them. Since the management was correct to suspend them it was wrong for the union to escalate matters.

 

[gunnerfitzy]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

As you noted, there are situations where management provoke a strike, and leave staff with no other reasonable option.


Just for the record, this wasn't a strike. This was a meeting for union members called during the less busy hours of the day to discuss suspensions of staff by management on issues that were going before the Labour Court at the time. Management escalated, union responded.

Personnel on duty should not be at these meetings. If that was a factor why not have the meeting at 2am? Not at 2pm during the working week.

They aren’t paid to call or attend union meetings. If they want to have such discussions they should do so on their own time. Since they did have their meeting on company time (rather than doing their job) they were, in effect, on strike.
It has now been agreed that the ATC staff who were suspended for refusing to do their job were in the wrong. Since they were in the wrong their managers were correct to suspend them. Since the management was correct to suspend them it was wrong for the union to escalate matters.

What he said!

 

[Complainer]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Personnel on duty should not be at these meetings. If that was a factor why not have the meeting at 2am? Not at 2pm during the working week.

I guess they were home in their beds at 2am, like most sensible people, so it wouldn't really be practical to have a meeting then!


THere are two sides to every story. You conveniently forget to mention that the Labour Court also ruled that the controllers should get the 6% increase that they were fighting for.

 

[Caveat]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

You conveniently forget to mention that the Labour Court also ruled that the controllers should get the 6% increase that they were fighting for.

So the effrontery and sense of injustice caused by newfangled technology can be bought then?

A bit like the teachers who despite banging on about conditions and class sizes opted for more money instead of a reduction in class sizes when they were given the choice.

 

[DB74]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

THere are two sides to every story. You conveniently forget to mention that the Labour Court also ruled that the controllers should get the 6% increase that they were fighting for.

I haven't seen this reported anywhere.

Have you a link?

 

[Howitzer]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Have you a link?

 

[Complainer]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I haven't seen this reported anywhere.

Have you a link?

You're not suggesting that Irish media could be a tad one-sided in relation to industrial disputes, are you?

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/air-traffic-controllers-should-get-pay-hike-labour-court-110948.html

So the effrontery and sense of injustice caused by newfangled technology can be bought then?

Well, if you read the article, you'll find that wasn't the case. The pay deal wasn't linked to the new technology. But I know you'll use the fact that it wasn't linked to new technology as something else to moan about now. Damned if you do and damned if you dont eh? Do keep on jumping to those conclusions though - it is far easier that looking at the facts.

A bit like the teachers who despite banging on about conditions and class sizes opted for more money instead of a reduction in class sizes when they were given the choice.

I don't recall teachers getting any choice on such matters. What particular dispute/decision are you referring to here?

 

[Sunny]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

So the effrontery and sense of injustice caused by newfangled technology can be bought then?

A bit like the teachers who despite banging on about conditions and class sizes opted for more money instead of a reduction in class sizes when they were given the choice.

Amazing isn't it.

 

[DB74]

LOL

I didn't mean anything by that request actually

I just couldn't find anything on RTE or the Times

Thanks anyway.

 

[Sunny]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I guess they were home in their beds at 2am, like most sensible people, so it wouldn't really be practical to have a meeting then!


THere are two sides to every story. You conveniently forget to mention that the Labour Court also ruled that the controllers should get the 6% increase that they were fighting for.

Well, if you read the article, you'll find that wasn't the case. The pay deal wasn't linked to the new technology. But I know you'll use the fact that it wasn't linked to new technology as something else to moan about now. Damned if you do and damned if you dont eh? Do keep on jumping to those conclusions though - it is far easier that looking at the facts.

You were the one that linked them. The stoppage to attend the union meeting was unjustified. The Labour Court ruled as such.