People who don't realise how good they have it: ATC Vs DAA dispute.

Z

z104

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Air traffic controllers refusing to cooperate with new technology a.k.a. looking for a 6% pay rise and for them to contribute to their own pension.

I know a few ATC and all of them that I know came into the job with their leaving cert only and got trained up by their employer. The Irish aviation authority.

Their conditions are excellent. If it's quiet on a night shift as long as their is sufficient cover the others can go to beddy byes on the couch until they're called.I'd love to be able to sleep at work when it got a bit quiet.

Once their 2 years training is done (18,969k a year while training) they earn twice the industrial wage as a basic and overtime + shift allowance can add another third onto this. They do a great job, but it is their job . We all do a great job, Well done everybody for doing a great job.

Their pension is fantastic but they still want more , more , more and they'll scream and scream and scream until they get it.
"The Controllers make no contribution to their own pensions. The Authority, meanwhile, pays a contribution of 30.5% of salary for every member of staff.
Controllers are significantly well paid. They are not being asked to take a pay cut. "


A reality check is needed by the ATC and alot of other spoilt employees around the state. Yet again another example of public servants living in cuckoo land.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

For such a small number of people they have some power...
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Niallers said:
Air traffic controllers refusing to cooperate with new technology a.k.a. looking for a 6% pay rise and for them to contribute to their own pension.

I know a few ATC and all of them that I know came into the job with their leaving cert only and got trained up by their employer. The Irish aviation authority.

Their conditions are excellent. If it's quiet on a night shift as long as their is sufficient cover the others can go to beddy byes on the couch until they're called.I'd love to be able to sleep at work when it got a bit quiet.

Once their 2 years training is done (18,969k a year while training) they earn twice the industrial wage as a basic and overtime + shift allowance can add another third onto this. They do a great job, but it is their job . We all do a great job, Well done everybody for doing a great job.

Their pension is fantastic but they still want more , more , more and they'll scream and scream and scream until they get it.


A reality check is needed by the ATC and alot of other spoilt employees around the state.
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Yup I'm sure looking after the safety and integrity of every plane that enters Irish airspace is that comfortable and cushy.

That has nothing to do with the current debates and action (which I don't support), but let's not paint ATC as in anyway a cushy number.

Unfortunately I don't know what the extent of the new technology is and how much of an impact it will have. My only knowledge is that it is a tried and tested technology in place in other ATCs, so in ordinary circumstances isn't such a problem. I don't know the circumstances under which the employees were instructed to use it and the circumstances underwhich they refused and were subsequently suspended.

The pay and conditions issue is separate to this action and is still in discussion IIRC with the LRC.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

They don't take anyone with a leaving cert, train them up and put them in the ATC so lets not pretend it is some cushy number.

Having said that, there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for this strike.

I work for a small subsidiary of a foreign financial institution. We are currently fighting for our future in this Country and had senior directors due to fly in this afternoon for a meeting. We had to cancel that and arrange a telephone conference. Just thy type of picture that we want to create when trying to convince people of the benefits of being in this Country.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Sunny said:
I work for a small subsidiary of a foreign financial institution. We are currently fighting for our future in this Country and had senior directors due to fly in this afternoon for a meeting. We had to cancel that and arrange a telephone conference. Just thy type of picture that we want to create when trying to convince people of the benefits of being in this Country.
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I sympathise, but only the other week France had ATC strikes, not long ago Italy was at a standstill because of a baggage handlers strike. It's not a judgement on Ireland no matter how much the media assists in portraying it as such, it's a sign of the times.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Latrade said:
I sympathise, but only the other week France had ATC strikes, not long ago Italy was at a standstill because of a baggage handlers strike. It's not a judgement on Ireland no matter how much the media assists in portraying it as such, it's a sign of the times.
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It is a judgement on Ireland if we are to go down the same road as those Countries and have massive industrial unrest that closes down our airports with 24 hours notice especially since we are an Island. Ireland is in competition with other Countries just like any company has to compete and moves like this reflect very badly on us. France and Italy are large enough and important enough to get away with things that we can't.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Sunny said:
They don't take anyone with a leaving cert, train them up and put them in the ATC so lets not pretend it is some cushy number.

Having said that, there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for this strike.
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Sunny, You are wrong. They do take people with just their leaving cert and they do train them up. Where are you getting your information from.

I suggest you go to the IAA web page
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/air-traffic-control-strike-likely-to-escalate-442670.html
Mr Kavanagh said airports could not operate in an environment of uncertainty and he called on controllers to resume normal working practices, to drop a pay rise claim and to pay a contribution towards their pension.

“They are among the best-paid public servants in the country,” he said.

“On average, they cost the Irish Aviation Authority €160,000 each. Earnings for the top 10% of controllers in the country last year ranged from €170,000 to €230,000.

“They work 182 days a year, they have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays – in addition to 10 public holidays.
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Sounds like a cushy number to me!
Of course, these poor darlings must be entitled to the money. The glorious Irish sense of entitlement flows all the way down from TDs.

I actually feel sorry for Ryanair. Michael O Leary must be mad to stay in this sad joke of a country.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Niallers said:
Sunny, You are wrong. They do take people with just their leaving cert and they do train them up. Where are you getting your information from.

I suggest you go to the IAA web page
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Didn't say they didn't. I said they don't just take anyone with a leaving cert. There are numerous other tests and requirements before they would even consider you. Only a percentage of people have the natural skills and are capable of doing the job just like airline pilots, surgeons etc. Its not all about training.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

umop3p!sdn said:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/air-traffic-control-strike-likely-to-escalate-442670.html


Sounds like a cushy number to me!
Of course, these poor darlings must be entitled to the money. The glorious Irish sense of entitlement flows all the way down from TDs.

I actually feel sorry for Ryanair. Michael O Leary must be mad to stay in this sad joke of a country.
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You're right, damn them all the work-shy feckers.

Oh except that when they do work it requires continuous holding of concentration for prolonged hours. You can't just answer an email or book a flight (joke!). So they are given greater time off because the mental effort of being responsible for every single aircraft that entires Irish Airspace is quite tough.

But, yeah, lazy gits should be thankful they've got a job.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

You're right, damn them all the work-shy feckers.

Oh except that when they do work it requires continuous holding of concentration for prolonged hours. You can't just answer an email or book a flight (joke!). So they are given greater time off because the mental effort of being responsible for every single aircraft that entires Irish Airspace is quite tough.
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Same applies for many thousands of people across the world. Many people have mission critical jobs where lives are often at risk.

But, yeah, lazy gits should be thankful they've got a job.
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Well we agree on that.
Plenty of people on the dole right now would love their cushy number. If they don't like their massive wages and perks, simply hold the country to ransom. Nice.

I hate ireland more and more each day.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

jeese! how on earth could you call it a cushy number!! it's probably the most pressurised job possible...from what i've read there's a huge dropout/fail rate in the training process...would never like to take on that responsibility since one moment's lapse in concentration could result in hundreds of deaths and what would you all say then?!
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

would never like to take on that responsibility since one moment's lapse in concentration could result in hundreds of deaths and what would you all say then?!
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I would say that it's a very badly designed system that has no failsafes.

As I said earlier, thousands of people across the world regularly do mission critical work where lives can be at stake. Of course, in Ireland you have to get half the year off and massive amounts of money to do this work.

The gulf between public and private widens each day. Do these people not realise that once all the business that rely on airports go bust, there will be no one to pay their inflated wages?
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

umop3p!sdn said:
I would say that it's a very badly designed system that has no failsafes.

As I said earlier, thousands of people across the world regularly do mission critical work where lives can be at stake. Of course, in Ireland you have to get half the year off and massive amounts of money to do this work.
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No ATC system in the world is 100% failsafe. None. They all require human monitoring and that monitoring is intense and critical. I'm sick of this yardstick of unemployment numbers as justification for everyone either being lazy, lucky, cushy, or whatever other form of uninformed envy we want to trot out.

And what's your point regarding "thousands across the world"? Who and how is that relevant. The relevancy is the standards for other ATCs and all err on the side of caution and have ample rest days.

But well done for buying the media hype. Even the fictional characters in Springfeild have more common sense and are less alarmist than the population here at the moment.

The terms and conditions have nothing whatsoever to do with this strike. It was very bad form of the employer to release those details in order to score points and even worse that the media went with those details.

umop3p!sdn said:
The gulf between public and private widens each day. Do these people not realise that once all the business that rely on airports go bust, there will be no one to pay their inflated wages?
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Again, there are plenty of examples of unreasonable expectations of private sector workers and plenty of examples of how their selfishness has resulted in job losses and closures.

We have to sort out the genuine business needs for reducing T&Cs and those that are just employers taking advantage of the current recession.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Mr Kavanagh said airports could not operate in an environment of uncertainty and he called on controllers to resume normal working practices, to drop a pay rise claim and to pay a contribution towards their pension.

“They are among the best-paid public servants in the country,” he said.

“On average, they cost the Irish Aviation Authority €160,000 each. Earnings for the top 10% of controllers in the country last year ranged from €170,000 to €230,000.

“They work 182 days a year, they have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays – in addition to 10 public holidays


-- Based on this they earn 880 euro per day on average. Seems very high to me. What do their equivalents at other (far busier) airports get paid I wonder?
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

While the strike by air traffic controllers is completely unacceptable (they should not be allowed to strike under any circumstances, just like the police) I don’t think their actions are reason to have a general pop at the public sector. I just don’t see the link.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

No ATC system in the world is 100% failsafe. None.
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Doh!
I said no failsafes, not 100% safe!

Like in deadman's handle for trains - that sort of thing.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Firefly said:
Mr Kavanagh said...
“They are among the best-paid public servants in the country,” he said.

“On average, they cost the Irish Aviation Authority €160,000 each. Earnings for the top 10% of controllers in the country last year ranged from €170,000 to €230,000.

“They work 182 days a year, they have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays – in addition to 10 public holidays


-- Based on this they earn 880 euro per day on average. Seems very high to me. What do their equivalents at other (far busier) airports get paid I wonder?
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One more time. The strike is because a number of staff refused to work with new technology, they were suspended without pay. The union claim the new equipment has a knock on impact on the overall pressure of the job. No I personally have reservations about this statement and if false, then the employer is within their rights to suspend employees who refuse to cooperate. However, the IAA haven't countered this statement, they haven't issued any notice on the equipment, not a single mention.

Instead they've muddied the waters by releasing the pay and conditions. All I can ask is that all reasonable people look past this. I agree that's good pay, I agree that's great conditions of employment. But that's irrelevant at this time.

Yes I think the union and employees are being unreasonable in their blanket rejection of the offer. But that's their right and the case is to be heard by the LRC. Their actions and response on the pay and conditions has gone done the established, legal, reasonable path that industrial disputes should. Save criticism or not for the LRC case and the response to that.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

umop3p!sdn said:
Doh!
I said no failsafes, not 100% safe!

Like in deadman's handle for trains - that sort of thing.
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So when an ATC goes the loo, the failsafe kicks in and all flights are grounded or sent on another loop of the airport? Unfortunately, juggling everything from a glider to a jumbo that crosses Irish Airspace isn't condusive to such black and white non-human related failsafes.

There are plenty of failsafes in the system, but the issue with ATC is that they don't want to rely on technology to make the decisions and as the failsafes in ATC escalate to more and more manual/human control, even to pushing blocks of wood around on a table.

That's the point, no matter what you introduce the necessity of having a human interface (to speak to the pilots) and to be there in full concentration is essential to our safety when on a plane.
 
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