People who don't realise how good they have it: ATC Vs DAA dispute.

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

aonfocaleile said:
Why? Do you not understand the concept that having a secure job does not equate to having an easy job? Suggesting that the question be put to those on the dole or to anyone else won't change the answer. Your suggestion demonstrates that you are either trolling by posting such nonsense or that you need to get yourself a dictionary. The public sector bashing has abated since the budget, yet you seem intent on stirring it up again.

You also made a comment that no civil/public servant would be inclined to leave their secure jobs at the moment. Firstly, it is a misconception that all public service jobs are secure. People on temporary contracts which have expired have been let go from all parts of the public service. I accept that these are not the majority in many areas, but as you seem intent on making sweeping generalisations, I feel its necessary to remind you of this. Secondly, no one in a secure job in any sector would leave their job at the moment without careful consideration. Its not a public sector thing, its basic common sense.

To say that there is no movement in or out of the public sector is also not correct. Movement inwards is certainly limited at the moment but thats solely down to a recruitment embargo. There is plenty of job shedding going on through incentivised retirements and career breaks however. I suggest you base future posts on the facts rather than hearsay and lazy headlines, which is what you seem to be doing.
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Very good post, Aonfocaleile. Have to say, I suspected a wee bit of trolling myself. A lot of sweeping statements..........
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

S.L.F said:
I'm going to keep a note of this post so in a years time you can admit you were wrong (I'm setting the alarm on my phone as we speak).
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The really strange thing is that I don't think you're joking :D

Wages are dropping in some areas of the the private sector and yes, the minimum wage may well drop, but if it does it will have bugger all to with any secret agenda of IBECs.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Birroc said:
Maybe you should ask that question to the 400,000 people on the dole.
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Well speaking as one of those 400,000 I don't for one minute thing having a secure job means having it easy/cushy! I cannot speak for the other 399,999 however and neither should you or anyone else, employed or not. I get far more annoyed at people speaking on behalf of the entire unemployed population, it's very patronising particularly coming from people who haven't lost their jobs.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Purple said:
The really strange thing is that I don't think you're joking :D
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See this space in a year:D

Purple said:
Wages are dropping in some areas of the the private sector and yes, the minimum wage may well drop, but if it does it will have bugger all to with any secret agenda of IBECs.
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How do you know it's not true since you admit it's secret?:D

IBEC is an employers body, Yes?

So it is in their interest for the min. wage to drop, Yes?

In fact it's in their interest for wages all across Ireland to drop (including all of us too BTW), the problem I have is if the govt is to target wages then it should be all across Ireland and not just target Public and Civil Servants (who were only hit a few short months ago).

In any case all this has nothing to do with the thread since it is about a semi-state body not Public or Civil servants.

*Edit* I've done a little of research on IBEC.

From here

http://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/Press...macgill-summer-school-22-07-2009?OpenDocument

In recent months many economists have argued the case for a sharp reduction in nominal wages in Ireland.
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I love the 'many'

A co-ordinated policy of wage reductions across both the public and private sectors would provide a significant boost to Ireland’s competitive position.
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Wages again

Up to now change has been slow and cumbersome especially in the public sector and in unionised employments in the private sector.
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IBEC are notoriously anti-union and don't beieve in collective bargaining.

It is impossible to ignore costs, including labour costs
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Wages again
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Birroc said:
Maybe you should ask that question to the 400,000 people on the dole.
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I am sure that most people on the dole would envy us our job security. I am also sure that the majority of them are intelligent enough to realise that the 350,000 jobs that comprise the public service are not all 'cushy'.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

S.L.F said:
See this space in a year:D



How do you know it's not true since you admit it's secret?:D

IBEC is an employers body, Yes?

So it is in their interest for the min. wage to drop, Yes?

In fact it's in their interest for wages all across Ireland to drop (including all of us too BTW), the problem I have is if the govt is to target wages then it should be all across Ireland and not just target Public and Civil Servants (who were only hit a few short months ago).

In any case all this has nothing to do with the thread since it is about a semi-state body not Public or Civil servants.

*Edit* I've done a little of research on IBEC.

From here

http://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/Press...macgill-summer-school-22-07-2009?OpenDocument



I love the 'many'



Wages again



IBEC are notoriously anti-union and don't beieve in collective bargaining.



Wages again
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Maybe you should ask yourself if they have a point.
The government can only reduce the wages of those they employ (we don't live in a socialist state like the Soviet Union) so cuts in the private sector have to be market led. I do agree that the public and civil service has taken a hammering in recent months but that's because their employer is bankrupt.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Purple said:
Maybe you should ask yourself if they have a point.
The government can only reduce the wages of those they employ (we don't live in a socialist state like the Soviet Union) so cuts in the private sector have to be market led. I do agree that the public and civil service has taken a hammering in recent months but that's because their employer is bankrupt.
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I'm not arguing with you about the bankrupt end of things but you have to ask why are they bankrupt and the answer is because they are bailing the banks out to the tune of billions and just to be totally clear the banks are a large part of IBEC.

Another funny thing I came across doing my searches IBEC is part govt funded and even more interesting them saying people should take wage cuts is the fact that their staffs' wages are not published.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

The bank bailout has almost nothing to do with our current account deficit, the deficit figures given by government are independent of money going to the banks which are characterized as investments, transfers from the NPRF etc..

So of the unsustainable 12% deficit we're running almost none of it is to do with the bank bailout, and much of it is to with ramping up government spending to match the tax intake from a bubble that couldn't last.

It'd be great if the bailout was the cause as once we're finished coughing up to them, then everything would go back to normal.

Not saying the bailout isn't a huge problem - it is especially as the costs of it will be adding to the amount of interest we'll be paying which will show up in the deficit.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

ashambles beat me to it.

IBEC is mainly made up of the Banks (protected sector), the semi-states (protected sector) and the foreign Multinationals that are told to join when they are given their tax breaks and hand-outs upon setting up shop on our turf.
The idea that they represent the "private sector" is nonsense.
IBEC represents that management of the non public part of the protected sector or the unionised sector minus the public sector.


Back on topic; aonfocaleile's post above is very well made. Air traffic controllers and their T&C's are not representative of the public or civil service or even other pseudo-private sector employees who negotiate directly or indirectly with the state.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I only have one question after reading about the perks of the job : How can I become an air traffic controller ? What do I have to do ? Anybody ? My calling in life has been wasted thus far ;)
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

S.L.F said:
I'm not arguing with you about the bankrupt end of things but you have to ask why are they bankrupt and the answer is because they are bailing the banks out to the tune of billions and just to be totally clear the banks are a large part of IBEC.

Another funny thing I came across doing my searches IBEC is part govt funded and even more interesting them saying people should take wage cuts is the fact that their staffs' wages are not published.
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So just to get this right, the bail out of the banks wasn't because they were on the point of collapse it was to save IBEC?

As to the "public funding" is there a link to this or is that some state bodies are members of IBEC? Not exactly the same thing.

Purple said:
IBEC is mainly made up of the Banks (protected sector), the semi-states (protected sector) and the foreign Multinationals that are told to join when they are given their tax breaks and hand-outs upon setting up shop on our turf.
The idea that they represent the "private sector" is nonsense.
IBEC represents that management of the non public part of the protected sector or the unionised sector minus the public sector.
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The last Shane Ross "exposé" (based upon the published accounts) shows there's about 7000 members of IBEC. There just aren't that many Banks, semi-state or multinational employers in the state.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Latrade said:
The last Shane Ross "exposé" (based upon the published accounts) shows there's about 7000 members of IBEC. There just aren't that many Banks, semi-state or multinational employers in the state.
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OK but weighting Joe Bloggs packaging limited and AIB the same is nonsense. The facts are that a) most IBEC members are not active within the organisation and b) it is dominated by the commercial semi-states and the banks.
IBEC represents the employer side of the unionised sector. The big foreign multinationals are also forces to join but they don’t set the agenda.
ISME is more representative of the real private sector. (I am not involved in any such group; talking shops the lot of them)
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Purple said:
OK but weighting Joe Bloggs packaging limited and AIB the same is nonsense. The facts are that a) most IBEC members are not active within the organisation and b) it is dominated by the commercial semi-states and the banks.
IBEC represents the employer side of the unionised sector. The big foreign multinationals are also forces to join but they don’t set the agenda.
ISME is more representative of the real private sector. (I am not involved in any such group; talking shops the lot of them)
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Couldn't agree more, I just disagree with Shane Ross' overly simplified view. As with all representative bodies, those who pay the biggest subs get the biggest voice irrespective of how truly representative they are of the majority.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Where is the downside for IMPACT here?

Surely they should be forced to pay some form of compensation to the company?

It seems to me that the unions can adopt these bully-boy tactics without fear of reprisals from anybody.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

DB74 said:
Where is the downside for IMPACT here?

Surely they should be forced to pay some form of compensation to the company?

It seems to me that the unions can adopt these bully-boy tactics without fear of reprisals from anybody.
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Financially... none. Employers have to pay compensation for any wrongdoing on their part. For example, If they had not paid an allowance that should have been paid then the employer would have to pay arrears. However the reverse does not happen.

In relation to whom they should pay compensation to, they should not only have to compensate the company but also the intending passengers on that day, the airlines and companies whoses exports were tried up that day. If they were forced to do this then I think they would spend a little more time examing options the next time they have a dispute rather than calling a snap strike and practically shutting down the countries airports.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

gunnerfitzy said:
Financially... none. Employers have to pay compensation for any wrongdoing on their part. For example, If they had not paid an allowance that should have been paid then the employer would have to pay arrears. However the reverse does not happen.

In relation to whom they should pay compensation to, they should not only have to compensate the company but also the intending passengers on that day, the airlines and companies whoses exports were tried up that day. If they were forced to do this then I think they would spend a little more time examing options the next time they have a dispute rather than calling a snap strike and practically shutting down the countries airports.
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+1 exactly.
 
Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Firefly said:
The last line of that link...

A separate Labour Court recommendation on a second dispute involving pay and pensions at the Irish Aviation Authority is due in the coming days.
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The Labour Court has confirmed that the 6% due under the national
wage agreement should be paid in full to the ATC's.
 
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