Zappone appointment a step too far...

From today's IT......

Sir, – In his eagerness never to miss an opportunity to criticise Sinn Féin, Stephen Collins betrays a misunderstanding of parliamentary opposition.

Of course Sinn Féin, Labour and the Social Democrats do not have confidence in Simon Coveney as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Defence. By definition, members of the Government do not enjoy the confidence of the Opposition. In the words of former British prime minister Edward Stanley, “The duty of an Opposition is very simple . . . to oppose everything and propose nothing”, although a party in Opposition which aspires to govern may find it politically advantageous to propose legislation that illustrates the policies it intends to enact in government – something Sinn Féin, Labour and the Social Democrats have done repeatedly.

As Stephen Collins points out, “The challenge facing the Coalition now is whether it can deliver on serious issues like housing, the budget and climate change”, but it should hardly come as a surprise that the Opposition does not have confidence in the Government to deliver on anything. That’s precisely why they oppose them. Fianna Fáil’s abstention in the vote of no confidence in Eoghan Murphy in December 2019 (which had been tabled by the Social Democrats, who were also criticised at the time as pulling a “political stunt”) was a clear indication that they were in sufficient agreement with Fine Gael on policy issues that they felt able to give confidence and supply to a Fine Gael minority government, and ultimately to enter coalition with them. Perhaps that’s why nobody outside the two parties can tell them apart.

Meanwhile, the parties that make up the Opposition are not in coalition with each other. That Labour and the Social Democrats oppose the Government for some of the same reasons as Sinn Féin indicates some policy compatibility that might lead them to enter government in coalition with Sinn Féin in future. But to argue that an Opposition party makes itself the “patsy” of another by voting no confidence in a Government it opposes is nonsense. Of course Labour and the Social Democrats could have abstained on the vote to “make a point”, but they obviously preferred to make the point that they (unsurprisingly for members of the Opposition) have no confidence in the Government.

A motion of no-confidence is not a “cheap publicity stunt” or “one-upmanship”, but a completely normal part of a parliamentary democracy like ours and a valuable function of the Opposition. It is equally normal that, in the ordinary course of events, the Government will rely on its parliamentary majority to win that motion. There is nothing here to justify the sorts of histrionics in your columnist’s piece.

As for the fact that a number of Independent TDs, who ostensibly sit in Opposition to the Government, were nonetheless willing to vote confidence in Mr Coveney, that might only serve to illustrate another of Edward Stanley’s aphorisms: “Definition of an independent Member of Parliament, viz one that could not be depended upon”. – Yours, etc,

ALAN EUSTACE,

School of Law,

Trinity College Dublin,

Dublin 2.
 
I agree. Far more important things going on at the moment. Brexit, climate change and of course...Garth Brooks!
you left one other very important item out your list, adding another 8.5% to PRSI to save their own skins come next General election,;) climate change Irish style,

I know well I should not have posted this but I know you are the kind of poster who will not take offense and enjoy a little banter sometimes,
 
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As for the fact that a number of Independent TDs, who ostensibly sit in Opposition to the Government, were nonetheless willing to vote confidence in Mr Coveney, that might only serve to illustrate another of Edward Stanley’s aphorisms: “Definition of an independent Member of Parliament, viz one that could not be depended upon”. – Yours, etc,
That is a clever quip from Mr Stanley. But nonetheless, the fact that 12 Indos were willing to support Coveney rather than even abstain cannot be dismissed by clever word play.
On the more general message of Alan Eustace's letter my read is that it says "oppositions have no confidence in the government by definition". So should the Dail session begin each working week with a vote of no confidence just to prove the oppposition are still in opposition?
But clearly there must be something more to a vote of no confidence rather than simply re-affirming what we all know. Especially in this day of instant judgement by social media SF in particular has recognised this exercise (with a foregone conclusion) as a nice piece of theatre suiting their agenda. But they did keep us guessing as to whether they would pull the stunt this time, until I presume the call came in from Army Council HQ to proceed.
Ironically the party least vulnerable to the stunt were FG (except for Harrisgate). FF were put in an embarrassing position and suffered the most. Labour were caught between a rock and a place of firm substance; they had to vote no confidence since as Mr Stanley rightly informs us by definition that is what oppositions do, but it definitely looked like they were Mary Lou's poodle which is why AK made a point of saying that we had more important things to do.
But yes Army Council HQ were right; SF has probably gained from the theatre; they certainly look like the only real opposition in town.
 
That is a clever quip from Mr Stanley. But nonetheless, the fact that 12 Indos were willing to support Coveney rather than even abstain cannot be dismissed by clever word play.
On the more general message of Alan Eustace's letter my read is that it says "oppositions have no confidence in the government by definition". So should the Dail session begin each working week with a vote of no confidence just to prove the oppposition are still in opposition?
But clearly there must be something more to a vote of no confidence rather than simply re-affirming what we all know. Especially in this day of instant judgement by social media SF in particular has recognised this exercise (with a foregone conclusion) as a nice piece of theatre suiting their agenda. But they did keep us guessing as to whether they would pull the stunt this time, until I presume the call came in from Army Council HQ to proceed.
Ironically the party least vulnerable to the stunt were FG (except for Harrisgate). FF were put in an embarrassing position and suffered the most. Labour were caught between a rock and a place of firm substance; they had to vote no confidence since as Mr Stanley rightly informs us by definition that is what oppositions do, but it definitely looked like they were Mary Lou's poodle which is why AK made a point of saying that we had more important things to do.
But yes Army Council HQ were right; SF has probably gained from the theatre; they certainly look like the only real opposition in town.
don't forget a lot of Independents were co councilors before they became independent TDs other have families in local politics where most local politicians once elected need to master the art of Clientelism to get reelected for the most part the ones who master it best get elected as TDs
The Independent TDs I know are a cut above the rest practicing local government Clientelism I cant see many raising their eyebrows at Zappone appointment, voting the right way could e worth a few favors you know,
 
don't forget a lot of Independents were co councilors before they became independent TDs other have families in local politics where most local politicians once elected need to master the art of Clientelism to get reelected for the most part the ones who master it best get elected as TDs
The Independent TDs I know are a cut above the rest practicing local government Clientelism I cant see many raising their eyebrows at Zappone appointment, voting the right way could e worth a few favors you know,
Yes, that is a possible explanation - it does need explained not simply by quipping that you can't depend on them.
I am a tad nigh eve I know but somehow 12 deciding not even going for the safe abstain option but positively supporting him seems inconsistent with @SGWidow 's view that these were quite deplorable offences worthy of the sack and ending his career. She sets a very high bar.
 
there is no dividend in abstaining on this Issue remember at the local level they possibly cut their teeth horse-trading with FF/FG,
If only Zappone had come up through local Government;)
 
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there is no dividend in abstaining on this Issue remember at the local level they possibly cut their teeth horse-trading with FF/FG,
If only Zappone had come up through local Government;)
I am not beyond a bit of scepticism/cynicism of indos' motivations. What I think we can glean is that this whole Zapponegate is a non event with their constituents/ I doubt their email boxes were filled with demands for Coveney's head or even his arms and legs.
 
I am not beyond a bit of scepticism/cynicism of indos' motivations. What I think we can glean is that this whole Zapponegate is a non event with their constituents/ I doubt their email boxes were filled with demands for Coveney's head or even his arms and legs.
as the say re-election starts the day after getting elected, leaving skepticism/cynicism to one side I have seen skulduggery in action where political parties including FF/FG? SF and Independents along with Union reps parachuted people into jobs through skulduggery, it never impacted or influenced my working life but I know people who benefited I also know people who lost out as a result,

when they knock on my door for a vote again all will be asked and reminded of past skulduggery that I know about,

depending on their answer I receive if they are as flippant as the Duke is they go to the bottom of the ballot paper,

you do know they would rather you not vote for them than vote the full ballot paper putting them in the last few places,
 
you left one other very important item out your list, adding another 8.5% to PRSI to save their own skins come next General election,;) climate change Irish style,
I think it's a great move...drive all those greedy, risk-taking self-employed capitalists into permanent jobs. That will really drive the economy forward! Pity the tax take will reduce though..
 
I think it's a great move...drive all those greedy, risk-taking self-employed capitalists into permanent jobs. That will really drive the economy forward! Pity the tax take will reduce though..
My Daughter Works in Austria Self employed she pays around 25% social insurance it did not affect her choice of self-employed over direct employed,

one of the most Capitalist countries in the World USA self-employed pay the combined employee and employer amount along with 2.9% Medicare tax,

I am all for the pro-self-employed Capitalists system they have all over the EU, Ireland is an outlier when it comes to Social security contributions from the self-employed,
The result is Bogus self-employment status to people who don't contribute enough to pay their own social security in Ireland, they would be better off in permanent jobs and leave the Genuine self-employed capitalist who have no problem paying their way when it comes to the social security system as they do in other EU countries,

Most or all Genuine Capitalists would be against the social security system operating in Ireland for the self-employed,

The Bedrock Of Genuine Capitalists System Is Founded On Paying Your Own Way,
 
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The silence from K Zappone is deafening not a word out of her since this started, she is keeping stum. She is the same as the Healy Raes , exact same strategy they similarly staying silent on the pub full of unmasked revellers in July. They have another thing in common the Healy raes had an American mother , it would be great tv when all this dies down to get her down to the Healy Rae pub in kilgarvan presuming they don't lose the license.
 
The silence from K Zappone is deafening not a word out of her since this started, she is keeping stum. She is the same as the Healy Raes , exact same strategy they similarly staying silent on the pub full of unmasked revellers in July. They have another thing in common the Healy raes had an American mother , it would be great tv when all this dies down to get her down to the Healy Rae pub in kilgarvan presuming they don't lose the license.
I have no problem with K Zappone she has possibly seen what goes on and wanted part of the action, I have friends who benefited from cronyism
I also have friends who were the victim of cronyism,

I am happy to wait until the next election and ask them to please clarify why they voted for cronyism, if I am not happy with their explanation I can vote down the full ballot paper putting anyone who thinks voting for cronyism is good right at the bottom of the ballot paper,
 
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The silence from K Zappone is deafening not a word out of her since this started, she is keeping stum.

In the same vein, isn't Simon "I'm seriously considering it" Harris making some racket?!

His behaviour may well be related to the old aphorism that "it's only defamation if it's not true."
 
Silence broken....very briefly
In her response to the invitation, Zappone wrote: “I acknowledge receipt of the invitation to meet with the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence.”
“I respectfully decline,” she said.
 
Now there's a surprise!


"Thank you so so much for offering me this incredible opportunity. It will be such a privilege, and I will be so proud to serve Ireland again. I think the time is really ripe for a change too. Could you let me know time period appointment is for, and what are the next steps. And you know, I am working with UN FPA until mid or end of June."

Given that the above clearly means that she wasn't offered a job presumably it's fair to surmise that "I respectfully decline" means that she is delighted to come before the Committee. At the very least, some sort of special needs assistant should check in with her to see if she really understands what the letter of invitation is saying and what her response seems to suggest.
 
Why on earth would anyone appear in front of a committee if they didn't have to??

because - in her own words.......

".....I will be so proud to serve Ireland again."

Pretty much everyone thinks that if Coveney wrote a book with his version of what happened, it would go into the fiction (as opposed to non-fiction) section of my local bookshop. FG bent over backwards for her and she has been given a chance to validate the FG narrative (by validate, I mean, render less incredulous). She has chosen, understandably, not to do so thereby leaving the reasonable conclusions in all of this as they are. My guess is that she would like to be helpful to FG (she is not beyond spinning a yarn or a kilometre or two or three or four) but it would be impossible for her to corrorborate the FG fable without herself appearing like a complete idiot - and that, for someone who traded on being of a certain level of sophistication - would be a step too far for her.
 
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For fear that my opinions weren't unpopular enough already, probably best to bring in Fintan to complete the job?! [It's kinda cold up here on the high ground and I needed some company!]

Oh when the saints, when the saints, when the saints go marching in.........




Fintan O'Toole: Fine Gael thinks it is saintly when it is merely sanctimonious​


Party’s self-image as the paragon of propriety actually encourages bad behaviour


Fintan O'Toole
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...it-is-merely-sanctimonious-1.4679060#comments

Billy Connolly said that the problem with the Scots is not that they package goods with pictures of men in kilts striding through the heather. It’s that they buy them themselves.

The problem with Fine Gaelers is not that they makes sententious claims about their own exceptional probity. It’s that they buy them themselves. They genuinely mistake their own sanctimony for saintliness.

Last week the Minister for State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Colm Brophy, was on Morning Ireland. The previous night, determined to put the sick into sycophancy, he told the Dáil that his boss and party colleague Simon Coveney “has exemplified all the things we like and admire in people in public life in this country”.

Brophy now widened the scope of his veneration. “What Fine Gael is and has always been,” he told Áine Lawlor, is “a party who [sic] respects the institutions of the State, we’re a party who believe in doing the right thing.”

The context for this, let us remember, is a party some of whose senior members have been defying the Constitution by leaking information from ongoing Cabinet discussions, giving confidential Government documents to outsiders, and/or flouting the Freedom of Information and National Archives Acts by destroying records of the conduct of official business.

Politicians, of course, don’t just blow their own trumpets. They routinely exhale great fanfares of vanity.
So, nothing very unusual here. What is striking about Brophy’s encomium, though, is its evident sincerity.

Impregnable certainty​

Fine Gael fortifies itself with an impregnable certainty that it, and it alone, embodies the institutions of the State, exemplifies the spirit of selfless public service and invariably does “the right thing”.

Because its political ancestors established the State, it sees itself as the incorruptible guardian of its laws, procedures and conventions. It is, in its own eyes, the peerless paragon of propriety.

Collective self-images are formed less as an Us than as a Not Them. Fine Gael’s Other was Fianna Fáil. It was Éamon de Valera’s deviousness, and then it was Charles Haughey’s corruption. So long as Fianna Fáil could be trusted to do the wrong thing, Fine Gael could be the virtuous counterpoint to its evil twin.

There are two problems with this attitude. One is that it is at odds with reality. The other is that it actually encourages cavalier disrespect for proper standards.

'Never mind that when was giving money to councillors in Dublin to vote for the rezoning of lands for lucrative development, some Fine Gael public representatives were up the front with their hands out.' Photograph: Collins Courts
Since Fine Gael always does the right thing, it follows, in this mentality, that the right thing must be whatever Fine Gael feels like doing. Behaviour that would be disreputable if Fianna Fáil was at it undergoes a process of blue-washing. Filtered through this self-serving mythology, it comes out smelling of righteousness.

Never mind that one of the most egregious episodes of misgovernment in the history of the State – the awarding of the second mobile phone licence in the mid-1990s – had a Fine Gael minister, Michael Lowry, at its heart. (Touchingly, Lowry spoke in Simon Coveney’s defence last week, praising “his integrity and commitment, which has been ************************* over the years”.)

Lucrative development​

Never mind that when Frank Dunlop was giving money to councillors in Dublin to vote for the rezoning of lands for lucrative development, some Fine Gael public representatives were up the front with their hands out.
Never mind that in the systemic corruption of planning processes throughout the country, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil were often so deeply intertwined in bed with each other as to be in effect one body.

Never mind that, for a whole nine years, between 1986 and 1995, Fine Gael’s own party headquarters was routinely and illegally evading tax by giving staff under-the-counter cash payments as bonuses and overtime.

Never mind that the party in the same period repeatedly broke the law by arranging for outside companies to pick up some of its bills and claim them as business expenses.

By definition, these are all Fianna Fáil-style shenanigans. The party that always does the right thing could not possibly have indulged in such dodginess.

This has been the Fine Gael syllogism: this is bad behaviour; we never behave badly; ergo our misdeeds have nothing to do with us.

Reckless disregard​

Hence both the reckless disregard for law and propriety that we have seen recently and the genuine hurt and puzzlement that anyone would think the party capable of illegality or impropriety. The saints go marching into the Dáil lobbies blinded by the light from their own halos.
But things have changed. Fianna Fáil is no longer Fine Gael’s convenient Other. Once the twins became conjoined in government, the contrast blurred into a distinction without a difference. Fianna Fáil’s supposedly greater perfidy no longer sheds a favourable light on Fine Gael’s misconduct.

There is, however, a new Thou to be holier than. Increasingly for Fine Gael, the comfort of not being Fianna Fáil is being replaced by the self-satisfaction of not being Sinn Féin. Is that really the bar the party of the State wants to set for itself?

It would be good to think that Fine Gael has been chastened by its recent experiences. Those is power need a good humbling every now and then. But as the song goes, it’s hard to be humble when you’re perfect in every way.
 
@SGWidow
Usual clever polemic from FOT. The sanctimonious jibe is fair enough though one can almost understand how FG got there, FF and now SF make a low bar. For me Labour score best for integrity.
But let's get back to proportionality. Let me introduce the Marmalade scale of corruption. As a benchmark I place CJH at 100 and further other readings are as follows:
Frank Dunlop 80
Michael Lowry 75
Ray Bourke 90
.
.
.
Zapponegate 5.

On the scale of sanctimonious hypocrisy, sure FG rate top.
 
@SGWidow
Usual clever polemic from FOT. The sanctimonious jibe is fair enough though one can almost understand how FG got there, FF and now SF make a low bar. For me Labour score best for integrity.
But let's get back to proportionality. Let me introduce the Marmalade scale of corruption. As a benchmark I place CJH at 100 and further other readings are as follows:
Frank Dunlop 80
Michael Lowry 75
Ray Bourke 90
.
.
.
Zapponegate 5.

On the scale of sanctimonious hypocrisy, sure FG rate top.
There is a reason you know why Labour is so low in the polls remember labour was at you know what party celebrating Cronyism
Labour always part of FF/FG cosy cartels,
 
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