Work Grievance

jim

Registered User
Messages
646
If you can show that the year end process was in some way unfair or unreasonable.

If you can show that some of the feedback is not accurate etc.

If you can prove your manager said what you are saying they said.

Then you have a very strong case.

I would try and gather plenty of evidence to dispute the feedback where possible. That is your best bet.

If a colleague was present when your manager made that statement then they should be a witness.

Being put on a PIP can indicate that you are being pushed out (not always). If so, this sounds like constructive dismissal to me.
 

Leo

Moderator
Messages
12,727
I need help navigating the grievance procecess and writiing the grievance letter.

Ask your employer to give you a copy of their disciplinary procedures. That should outline how the full process will work and where best to put your case forward. If you received positive feedback in previous year-end or mid-year evals, gather all that.

They should have this readily available given they are a global behemoth as you say. Failure to provide this to you in a timely manner will significantly weaken any case you might take. Any failure on their part to fulfil their obligations within those procedures will likewise significantly impact their ability to pursue.

How to manage potentially going on sivk leave?
What if i am asked to see their occupational doctor?

This you need to be careful of, as per the Citizen's Information link earlier, repeated absences, even when medically certified can be grounds for dismissal. The company can successfully argue that your health issues make you unsuitable for the role. The bar there will require more than two absences in a year though! If you have no underlying health issue that might render you unfit for that particular role, you should have no fear of an assessment by your company's chosen doctor. They are not in the business of faking reports to suit the company. I've had two cases as a manager where we involved the company doctor to carry out such an assessment, in both cases the doctor just reported their opinion based on the assessment without influence.
 

ArthurMcB

Registered User
Messages
128
Thanks Leo. Iv reviewed the Grievance procedure and will certainly follow it.

Thats very helpful Leo re occupational doctor. I dont have an underlying condition thankfully.
 
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Leper

Registered User
Messages
1,606
@ArthurMcB,

The problem with Trade Unions in the private sector is that while they can be very helpful in situations like this they tend to become corrosive and cause longer term harm to the viability of the business. I have seen many good and prosperous companies closed by their Unions.

.

Whatever trades unions are, they are not cannibalistic (as in eating up their own members) and companies that closed were due to bad management.
 

ArthurMcB

Registered User
Messages
128
Just a quick update:

I submitted a grievance two months ago but i have not yet spoken to anyone about it. Although hr did acknowledge it.

Is this potentially contributing to constructive dismissal?
 

Peanuts20

Registered User
Messages
344
In the multi-national I work for we are encourage to get colleagues feedback as part of our appraisal system. In this case, is seeking feedback from your colleagues or a manager seeking feedback from your team mates part of the process or was it a solo run by the manager in question? In other words, did he follow the correct internal processes?

In terms of the PIP, it can be the start of managing someone out the door but in my case (as a manager) they are also a black mark against me because it suggests I've not managed someone's performance adequately. Has the PIP been shared with you and what is the plan on it to get back to a "better performer" in your managers eyes?

In terms of the grievance, any resignation prior to the process being completed potentially can weaken any case for constructive dismissal. In a large multi-national it is not unusual for these things to take months as "processes" are followed and the case gets passed around. You should contact HR and ask for an update.
 

dereko1969

Registered User
Messages
2,926
Just a quick update:

I submitted a grievance two months ago but i have not yet spoken to anyone about it. Although hr did acknowledge it.

Is this potentially contributing to constructive dismissal?
The Grievance Procedure manual should have timelines in it, I would have thought. You should follow up by email so there's a record of it. As Peanuts says was the PIP shared with you, it seemed strange to me at the time that you were appealing something you didn't have sight of!
 

Clamball

Registered User
Messages
284
Yes, if their procedure is clear that they will progress promptly and not leave people hanging.

So you are still working there but feel you are being pushed to resign? They have said they will put you on a PIP but this has not started yet. Your year end review was poor and feedback from 3 individuals was poor. Your manager was not happy you took sick leave and you think this has impacted her view of you and she agrees with the 3 individuals your performance was poor.

Being a large company they have policies and procedures. If these are not being followed then you can speak up and say you are being treated unfairly due to this.

1. Sick leave, if your manager thinks you should not have been on sick leave volunteer to go to occupational health doctor and let him give the company his opinion. Just be factual about it. Hey boss you think I should not have taken sick leave that my doctor said I should. Please refer me to company doctor so we can clear this up once and for all. I am happy to accept the findings of the company doctor. Then after conversation with boss send a quick email following up on few basic points. Follow up every 2 weeks until she acts or says no need to take it further. Then every time it is brought up you can say you said there was no need for more action so why are you bringing it back up, do you want to reopen the topic?

2. Poor feedback at end of year review. Sounds like this was just dumped on you at the meeting so I bet your company procedure says nothing should be a “surprise” at end of year review. So you could go back and say I was surprised by this feedback at the review. I had not been alerted during the year that I was slipping on task C when I was under the impression that tasks A & B were a priority as we discussed at our 1:1 during the year. If doing task C was a priority I would have had no issue doing it if I had been aware. So I feel the negative feedback in the review was unfair since I was not given the opportunity to improve during the year due to not being told. I don’t want people being frustrated with my performance when it could have been rectified if communicated properly. What you are doing here is showing how reasonable you are, how you were blindsided, how the process was not followed, and why the review did not follow the company procedure.

3. Your complaint or appeal to HR. Obviously follow the grievance procedure to the letter, if HR have not reverted to you in 2 months it probably is failing their process in their policy so do get back to HR saying... the grievance procedure says the process will move without delay, or the process says the person who raised the grievance is kept in the loop, and that while you are reasonable and understand delays can occur you do need an update and the follow up with an email every 2 weeks pointing out how it is becoming more and more unfair to you.

So your whole tone should be I am a reasonable person, I was surprised at these issues, I am very happy to follow company process, if issued had been brought up in the regular 1:1 I would have put a plan in place with my manager how to rectify. Just avoid complaining about anyone in the company or whining.
 

ArthurMcB

Registered User
Messages
128
Thanks @Clamball , I think you are spot on.

I was blinsided and furthermore some of the feedback is not valid. Some of the feedback relates to my taking sick leave and the impact this had on wider team (i should not be penalised for this). We re talkin a few days certified sick leave.

PIP was not mentioned in mid year and the feedback, imo, doesnt justify such a serious sanction. Additionally i was never given the chance to discuss the feedback with the feedback givers or indeed defend myself.

My manager, esrlier in the year, threatened me with a pip re taking sick leave.

Grievance procedure doesnt specifiy timelines but at this stage its gone on too long and is inherently unfair.

My manager shouted at me in year end, to not challenge their feedback. This i think is bullying behaviour.

Iv seen occupational health twice and they agree with my GPs assessment.

@dereko1969 PIP has not yet been formulated or shared as I am appealing the very foundation on which its being foisted on me.

@Peanuts20 it wasnt a solo run by my manager at all. Was more an orchestrated effort by my managers manager imo. Few people gave feedback and i accept some of the feedback. However some of it isnt valid or accurate or indeed severe enough to warrant a pip. In my year end appeal i have tried to provide evidence to contradict the invalid feedback.

All in all, i believe i am being constructively dismissed.
 

Peanuts20

Registered User
Messages
344
In order to prove constructive dismissal (and the onus is on you to prove this), you will have to be able to show either breech of contract of bullying or unreasonable behaviour by the employer where you were left with no other position other then to resign. An employer does not "constructively dismiss" you, you resign and have to prove you had no choice.

You accept that some of the negative feedback on your performance was correct. Hence there seems to be grounds for your employer saying that your performance was not up to scratch and not in line with your peers. Potentially a PIP may be OTT for this but does being put on a PIP not give you an opportunity to improve your performance? Were you to do everything that was on that PIP, what would next years review look like.?

You need to chase up on where your grievance is, and do so on writing. 2 months is way too long for at least some action to take place. However the danger for you here is if you resign and your employer can show action was happening on the grievance and you did not wait for it to complete, it will make any case you take more challenging

Why did your managers manager take a dislike to you over a few days sick? What was the impact on his teams performance of this?

Sorry if this is sounding cold but from what is on here so far, regardless of what you may think, I'd say your employer could put up a reasonable counter-arguement in any tribunal. Here is someone who is not a top performer, who has acknowledged some of the negative feedback, who has not given time for a comprehensive grievance process to be followed through etc etc..
 

DeeKie

Registered User
Messages
744
I think it’s the treatment of you on sick leave that’s the issue for the employer, and the behaviour of management to you being sick. I would raise this independently of the PIP. I suspect that the PIP will not pursued then. You will have to work hard on any issues raised in the mooted PIP that are valid.

if it were me I’d also consider my long term future there. Hope you are fully recovered.
 

ArthurMcB

Registered User
Messages
128
Thanks DeeKie.

I have raised two seperate issues. 1 is my appeal of the PIP and 2 is my grievance. They are two seperate processes although they are related to 6each other.

Still waiting to have my grievance discussed, in spite of me submitting it over 2 months ago.
 

ArthurMcB

Registered User
Messages
128
I finally had a grievance hearing at end of may. I felt that all of my grievance was listened to and i was told it could yet take months to conclude.
I followed up at end of june and was again told it could be months and that investigations are ongoing.
I am frustrated its taking so long esp as its not complex at all and there is really only maybe 3 people to interview as part of investigation.
I feel trapped in that i dont want to resign until its concluded on and at same time im desperate to move on.
 

kingvagabond

Registered User
Messages
132
I finally had a grievance hearing at end of may. I felt that all of my grievance was listened to and i was told it could yet take months to conclude.
I followed up at end of june and was again told it could be months and that investigations are ongoing.
I am frustrated its taking so long esp as its not complex at all and there is really only maybe 3 people to interview as part of investigation.
I feel trapped in that i dont want to resign until its concluded on and at same time im desperate to move on.
Yes it seems that what you are describing is a bit of a mudhole to be in. Best of luck. Constructive dismissals to manage someone out of a position/ a company are quite common. I wish we had tools to be able to easily identify this. Unfortunately for most people its collect loads of evidence to prove that you are being managed out which is taxing and exhausting on top of the stress of knowing someone is trying to check mate you. I would put a reasonable time frame on the results of grievance. Your union may do this for you. Finally, I would echo what some people have said on here and that is move on from the place as soon as you can.
 

dereko1969

Registered User
Messages
2,926
I finally had a grievance hearing at end of may. I felt that all of my grievance was listened to and i was told it could yet take months to conclude.
I followed up at end of june and was again told it could be months and that investigations are ongoing.
I am frustrated its taking so long esp as its not complex at all and there is really only maybe 3 people to interview as part of investigation.
I feel trapped in that i dont want to resign until its concluded on and at same time im desperate to move on.
I think this is grounds for constructive dismissal, at every meeting they're telling you it will take ages (subtext is would you ever just leave!). Time to consult a specialist solicitor.
 

ArthurMcB

Registered User
Messages
128
From what I understand, constructive dismissal is not a great path to go down mainly because the award, if succesful, is based on loss of earnings. If i quit i would not want to, or indeed be able to, be out of work for very long as the bills need paying. So the potential claim may not be worth the effort.
 

presidenttttt

Registered User
Messages
123
The effort and stress is often strong reasons to avoid the hassle of a claim unless fairly sure the employer will lose.

Grievances can take time, but surely a performance plan is generated because the employer wants to improve something so is therefore usually generated rapidly? The slow pace of both therefore seems puzzling.

I would look for other opportunities, plenty of movement in labour market likely as lockdown relaxes.

And yes, there is absolutely a need for unions in many organisations. The law is heavily in favour of employers in Ireland and the U.K. anyway.
 
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