Work Grievance

[ArthurMcB]

You seem pretty committed to the decision on what you are going to do already so I am not sure why you are posting here for advice or guidance - it seems to be just for validation of your own course of action. In which case, I hope things work out for you as you hope.

Youre probably right there gravirygirl. At this stage mostly looking for a bit of the aul validation. But also if there are any nuggets of advice or wisdom out there.

 

[ArthurMcB]

It's much more important for you to get on with your life and put this nasty experience behind you... In the big scheme of life is potentially a months salary worth the emotional burden this may cause you

The beauty of it is this will cause me zero emotional burden. And i am getting on with my life. If this were something that was crippling me id stop in my tracks and assess things differently. It doesnt faze me thankfully and i wont really give it a thought over the months ahead.

As i mentioned in prev threads the risks as i see it are:

1. Cost: nil in my case as ill rep myself
2. Stress etc. Nil in my case, why woukd i be stressed.
3. Embarassment - if it goes to adjudication my name is published. This doesnt bother me too much as i have a valid case and it may get resolved before then anyway.
4. I may lose. So what? I have a solid case so who knows i may even win.
5. Time spent prepping my case. Next to nil for me as my docs/evidence are ready to go.
6. Potential comp is not material. I agree with this but its still at least 4 weeks pay which, for me, aint to be sniffed at given the above 5 points.

Am i missing anything? Yes, to some extent im looking for validation but more so I am seeking any advice or wisdome on anything i may be overlooking.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Arthur, it is difficult for anyone here to give an opinion as it appears that sick leave is not the only issue.

The Performance Improvement Plan would be material in any grievance procedure as it would include specific examples of performance or behavioural shortfalls that needed to be improved.

Only you can evaluate whether you could satisfactorily challenge anything in the PIP.

The only thing I would say that PIPs should be issued in a timely manner to allow a reasonable period for improvement before the next appraisal. Therefore, timeliness of the PIP would also count in grievance procedures.

 

[ArthurMcB]

Arthur, it is difficult for anyone here to give an opinion as it appears that sick leave is not the only issue.

The Performance Improvement Plan would be material in any grievance procedure as it would include specific examples of performance or behavioural shortfalls that needed to be improved.

Only you can evaluate whether you could satisfactorily challenge anything in the PIP.

The only thing I would say that PIPs should be issued in a timely manner to allow a reasonable period for improvement before the next appraisal. Therefore, timeliness of the PIP would also count in grievance procedures.

I sucessfully challenged the mooted PIP and had it overturned. I think I covered this in previous posts. Following on from that my employer still witheld a lot of my bonus. This however only makes up a part of my grievance.

At this stage though my grievance has not being upheld and im going to let sleeping dogs lie on that.

My resignation was on foot of my grievance not having being dealt with. It was dealt with after i resigned. This is the basis of my claim.

 

[Sophrosyne]

At this stage though my grievance has not being upheld and im going to let sleeping dogs lie on that.

Arthur, I’m sorry if this is not what you want to hear but I am struggling to make sense of the principle of your claim.

Whether your employer acted in such a manner that you could not reasonably be expected to continue in their employ is the issue.

The fact that the matter wasn’t dealt with until after you left, in this case, is irrelevant.

Why?

Your grievance was not upheld - which, by not challenging, you effectively accept that you didn’t have one or couldn’t prove that you had.

It follows, therefore, that you cannot prove that employer behaviour materially influenced your decision to leave before your employer’s determination.

 

[Salvadore]

Arthur, I’m sorry if this is not what you want to hear but I am struggling to make sense of the principle of your claim.

Whether your employer acted in such a manner that you could not reasonably be expected to continue in their employ is the issue.

The fact that the matter wasn’t dealt with until after you left, in this case, is irrelevant.

Why?

Your grievance was not upheld - which, by not challenging, you effectively accept that you didn’t have one or couldn’t prove that you had.

It follows, therefore, that you cannot prove that employer behaviour materially influenced your decision to leave before your employer’s determination.

I’d agree with everything here. With unfair dismissal, the burden of proof is with the employee.

It seems your desire to give your former employer a bloody nose is greater than your willingness to put the whole experience behind you which is what you’ll have to do eventually.

 

[ArthurMcB]

Arthur, I’m sorry if this is not what you want to hear but I am struggling to make sense of the principle of your claim.

Whether your employer acted in such a manner that you could not reasonably be expected to continue in their employ is the issue.

The fact that the matter wasn’t dealt with until after you left, in this case, is irrelevant.

Why?

Your grievance was not upheld - which, by not challenging, you effectively accept that you didn’t have one or couldn’t prove that you had.

It follows, therefore, that you cannot prove that employer behaviour materially influenced your decision to leave before your employer’s determination.

Thanks Sophrosyn, this is good food for thought and the kind of challenge i was looking for. If i dont have a claim, then i certainly will not pursue it. I need to think this through a bit more.

Please note though, i did challenge my grievance. I appealed it 7 months ago when i got outcome initially. The recent outcome is result of appeal.

 

[PaddyBloggit]

Life is too short.... just move on.

 

[elcato]

Publicity from the WRC case could be adverse if/when you want to move on again. I'm sure some HR person may follow them amd take notes. The first thing I do when I get an interview to do is google the person's name. (I am not in HR btw.)

 

[ArthurMcB]

The fact that the matter wasn’t dealt with until after you left, in this case, is irrelevant.

Why?

Your grievance was not upheld - which, by not challenging, you effectively accept that you didn’t have one or couldn’t prove that you had.

It follows, therefore, that you cannot prove that employer behaviour materially influenced your decision to leave before your employer’s determination.

Hang on a second @Sophrosyne . Its entirely relevant.

By not dealing with grievance for so long I had every right to resign.

By dealing with after i resigned is too little too late.

You are correct in saying my grievance was not upheld.

You are not correct in saying i didnt challenge it. Of course i did. I formally appealled their original response 7 or so months ago. I had a very legitimate grievance. In fact they didnt deal with all aspects of my grievance in the end but thats another matter.

Therefore, surely I can prove that the reason for my resignation is in direct response to my employer not dealing with my grievance.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You are not correct in saying i didnt challenge it.

Perhaps I misunderstood.

At this stage though my grievance has not being upheld and im going to let sleeping dogs lie on that.

My resignation was on foot of my grievance not having being dealt with. It was dealt with after i resigned. This is the basis of my claim.

Can you explain precisely what you mean by this.

Will your grievance with your former employer form part of the case you present to the WRC, or are you saying it will not and you intend to rely solely on the delay in providing you with a determination.

 

[ArthurMcB]

When i resigned my grievance had not been dealt with. It had been over 7 months since i had appealed the original decision. Original decision itself came 8 months after submitting grievance, if that makes sense. All in all it was a lengthy process.

Overall my grievance was not upheld. In my opinion some of it should have been and i provided evidence to support my contention. Also some aspects that i raised as part of my appeal were not dealt with in the recent final outcome that I received.

My claim is based on:
A) My grievance not being upheld where i provided evidence to support my case. I think an independant objective reasonable person will see the merit in my case.
B) Aspects not being dealt with. I have not yet sought an explanation why some aspects were not dealt with.
C) at the time of my resignation, 7 months after appealing, i had still not received an outcome and was given no indication of when id receive outcome. This was the final straw in a series of events, as contained in my grievance, which i feel left my position untenable so i resigned.

Hours after resigning i was finally provided with an outcome. But i had already resigned and cited the above.

My case is based on all of the above. I think i have a whiff of a case but maybe not.

 

[Leo]

By dealing with after i resigned is too little too late.

Actually, the optics here are they rushed to deal with it after you handed in your notice. This looks quite bad for the employer and perhaps suggests they intentionally dragged it out so you would leave.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You appear to be relying on the fact that your employer delayed their decision on your appeal until you left. That would be relevant only if you could prove to the WRC that you had a genuine grievance in the first place. Otherwise, your claim might be viewed as vexatious.

The WRC will know nothing of your grievance unless you present comprehensive and detailed information. You bear the onus of proof; remember your employer will challenge everything.

If you fail to prove that you had a legitimate grievance, then it follows that you had no legitimate reason to leave, delays by your former employer notwithstanding.

At all events good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Edit: BTW, I am playing Devil's advocate to illustrate what you might encounter in the WRC. I cannot, nor can anyone else tell you whether you are right or wrong, as that would entail hearing evidence from both sides.

 

[Bolter]

It sounds to me like you've already decided to lodge a claim whatever people think.
If they gave you result of grievance appeal a few hours after you resigned, then you have a good case that they were purposely dragging out the procedure.
If you are going ahead, you should claim everything :
1. Itemise the loss arising from the loss of that bonus you mentioned,
2. If you didn't get all your annual leave AND public holiday leave, overtime whatever - then put in claim under payment of wages act for that
3. Check if any colleagues at your level got promoted internally in your last year there-were you notified (even if on sick leave they have obligation to notify you) put that in and itemise financial loss from that.
A word of warning: I would make sure I'm sitting at the desk of the new job with a signed contract first.
What if your new Job finds out you are suing. Couldn't they withdraw their job offer?
Anyway good luck. You were treated badly.

 

[Bolter]

Just to clarify - I still think you shouldn't lodge a claim. For a very small "win" you will have a recorded claim in wrc: future employers can look at those wrc decisions. Even valid claims can be off-putting to employers. Do you really want to tarnish your career for the sake of a few grand?
In the main wrc awards are abysmally low.

 

[ArthurMcB]

@Bolter
I think there is a mediation prior to adjudication and its only at adjudication that details are published so for now I will at least pursue to that point.

To your point re being in situ at new job. It takes many months for cases to progress at wrc so lodging complaint now shouldnt hamper a new role - as long as im in there pretty soon which I will be.

You appear to be relying on the fact that your employer delayed their decision on your appeal until you left.

As well as the other things i mentioned in my post above i.e not upholding a valid grievance wherein i provided strong evidence which i will furnish very easily to wrc. And, not dealing with aspects of grievance. I think I can prove to wrc that I had a grievance in 1st place and it wasnt vexation or malicious.

I really do appreciate your challenge here Sophrosyn and i do plan to carefully weigh up cost v benefit of this.

 

[Bolter]

I'd still wait till you were in the new job. What if new job telephone your old job before you start? That's normal enough when doing a background check . Aren't you worried they might withdraw the job offer if your old job says "yeah, he's left and just lodged a claim against us?"

 

[Salvadore]

Got my grievance outcome letter. My grievance wasnt upheld. Its disappointing but not surprising.

The outcome letter explained why they werent upholding my various grievance points. Most of it is reasonable and what I expected tbh. Some of my points were hard to prove. Theyve kind of exaggerated and almost made up a few things that theyve included.

I will probably appeal but dont really see the point.

This is what you said in November on receipt of the grievance outcome letter. If, by your own admission, it’s mostly reasonable and that some of your points are hard to prove, what makes you think you now have the basis for a successful claim for unfair dismissal where the burden of proof is with you.

Other than that, the company is guilty only of not processing your appeal as quickly as they should but, given that they dealt with the substantive issues raised in the initial grievance, can you honestly say that this left you in a position where you had no choice but to resign?

 

[ArthurMcB]

the company is guilty only of not processing your appeal as quickly as they should

The company is guilty of not processing my appeal. Full stop. At the time i resigned. The fact that they dealt with it purely in response to my resignation is adding insult to injury.

In addition, and notwithstanding what I had said in earlier post as you pointed out; their rebuttle of my initial was mostly reasonable. But in some key respects was not reasonable.

In addition, they have not dealt with other aspects of my appeal.

At the time i resigned, i was in a position where I had no choice but to resign. My grievance had not being dealt with. I think thats grounds for constructive dismissal. This, together with the points mentioned just above was the final straw for me. It was bad enough that not one aspect of my grievance was upheld inspite of evidence to support it but to then drag it out for months and only then respond when i resign is unreasonable on the part of employer i think.