Wolf Tone's view on Conor Skehan's article on homelessness

[Firefly]

Homelessness is a very hot political issue and will probably factor in the results in the next election. As such the government is doing all it can to get the numbers down. Building is slow & expensive, so the low hanging fruit is the existing stock. This will drive up rents for those renting and purchase prices for those buying. As those who are bothered to provide themselves their own roof are not well organised nor represented so I have no doubt this will continue. I think FG need to watch out for the silent protest though. Having said that though, those with the greatest assets, pensioners, must be delighted with the increase in the value of their homes.

 

[WolfeTone]

You are only offered emergency accommodation like a hostel, or a hotel if kids are involved, if you are in danger of having no roof over your head.
If you are staying with parents, even sleeping on the floor, you can register as homeless. But you are not necessarily considered an emergency by virtue of having a roof over your head and access to basic items like showers, toilets etc.
You would be offered emergency accommodation if you reported that your parents were intent on evicting you. But if they were not, at best your situation would be assessed by social care worker, and perhaps funding to buy some mattresses.
If social care worker deemed conditions below acceptable standards, its possible, but not guaranteed a hotel could be offered. But in the main, living in overcrowded conditions with parents is generally not deemed a reason to offer emergency accommodation.
According to report I attached earlier, there are 71,858 people on social housing list. 3,465 have cited overcrowding as the main need for social housing supports - they are still waiting, and are not living in hotels!

The quickest way to get onto a social housing list is to fill out an application form from a local authority - not this elaborate 'expert' scheme to take advantage of the system.
These people had accommodation, they were paying rent, are they working? Did they give up jobs too?
Apparently they were offered hotel accommodation but didn't stay there. They stayed at parents house. Someone told them to 'show up' at hotel (who?) - wouldn't cleaners become curious if rooms were never slept in? Or are they all in on this cunning plot also?
Wouldn't hotel management think, perhaps I could let out these rooms for general commercial use and make a profit, or is having homeless people and their kids the prime market these days?

 

[WolfeTone]

That supply is just not there

There are 1700 homeless families. If we improved the allocation of the existing stock (move people around) by 00.7% then we'd have no homeless families.

Yes, and not forgetting that 40% of private owned housing is under occupied or vacant altogether.
An incentivised scheme, offering tax breaks on income for example, could be offering at a fraction of the cost needed to build the required housing.
It would help embed down-sizing as a social norm. Tax efficient, environmentally beneficial and I believe the benefits would outweigh the costs significantly.

 

[valery]

The more relevant comparison is the foreign-born population of Dublin.

17 % of the population in Dublin are foreign born. However the vast majority are EU born. 9 of the top 10 nationalities living in Ireland are from the EU. Brazilians occupy 6th on the list.
21% of homeless families in Dublin in 2018 were from Non EU countries. During a recent discussion on the radio, it was claimed that some of these were here illegally and were bypassing the asylum system by accessing homeless assistance. The figure for 2017 was 23%.
its not just Irish gaming the system.

Irish born accounted for two thirds of families accessing homeless services in Dublin during 2018.

 

[Purple]

You are only offered emergency accommodation like a hostel, or a hotel if kids are involved, if you are in danger of having no roof over your head.
If you are staying with parents, even sleeping on the floor, you can register as homeless. But you are not necessarily considered an emergency by virtue of having a roof over your head and access to basic items like showers, toilets etc.
You would be offered emergency accommodation if you reported that your parents were intent on evicting you. But if they were not, at best your situation would be assessed by social care worker, and perhaps funding to buy some mattresses.
If social care worker deemed conditions below acceptable standards, its possible, but not guaranteed a hotel could be offered. But in the main, living in overcrowded conditions with parents is generally not deemed a reason to offer emergency accommodation.
According to report I attached earlier, there are 71,858 people on social housing list. 3,465 have cited overcrowding as the main need for social housing supports - they are still waiting, and are not living in hotels!

The quickest way to get onto a social housing list is to fill out an application form from a local authority - not this elaborate 'expert' scheme to take advantage of the system.
These people had accommodation, they were paying rent, are they working? Did they give up jobs too?
Apparently they were offered hotel accommodation but didn't stay there. They stayed at parents house. Someone told them to 'show up' at hotel (who?) - wouldn't cleaners become curious if rooms were never slept in? Or are they all in on this cunning plot also?
Wouldn't hotel management think, perhaps I could let out these rooms for general commercial use and make a profit, or is having homeless people and their kids the prime market these days?

You might not want to believe what people are telling you but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
If I owned a hotel and had customers paying for rooms they didn't use I'd be delighted; no cleaning cost, no breakfast to provide etc.
People who are struggling to pay rent see an option of having their rent paid by someone else. Some take that opportunity. Others have self respect and integrity and don't.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse or incredibly naive if you don't accept that there is a sizable chunk of the Irish people who are willing to scam the system to get a free/cheap home. We are a nation of tax evaders, why would this be different?

 

[WolfeTone]

You might not want to believe what people are telling you but that doesn't mean it isn't happening

I can assure you that the cunning plot to scam the system for a free/cheap home as outlined previously is far from 'expert', as suggested.
Emergency accommodation is only offered if someone, or a family, is in danger of going a night without a roof over their head.
It is not offered to those who are staying with their mammies.
TD's and Dept of Social Welfare dont offer emergency accommodation. They may provide help in getting in contact with homeless agencies like Simon, or Merchant Quay.
Once you arrive at their door, they will assess your situation. They will ask questions like
- how long have you been homeless, or
- what were the circumstances that made you homeless?

If you answer, "im actually staying with mammy", you can register as homeless - but this cunning plan to get a cheap home will fall flat on its face.

I have no doubt that some people are scamming the system, but the plan outlined above, is not of them. It is an idiots guide to losing the home you already had.

 

[WolfeTone]

If I owned a hotel and had customers paying for rooms they didn't use I'd be delighted; no cleaning cost, no breakfast to provide etc.

That would require you as the hotel owner to engage in the scam also, using public funds for illicit purposes.

Others have self respect and integrity and don't.

Indeed.

 

[Purple]

I can assure you that the cunning plot to scam the system for a free/cheap home as outlined previously is far from 'expert', as suggested.
Emergency accommodation is only offered if someone, or a family, is in danger of going a night without a roof over their head.
It is not offered to those who are staying with their mammies.
TD's and Dept of Social Welfare dont offer emergency accommodation. They may provide help in getting in contact with homeless agencies like Simon, or Merchant Quay.
Once you arrive at their door, they will assess your situation. They will ask questions like
- how long have you been homeless, or
- what were the circumstances that made you homeless?

If you answer, "im actually staying with mammy", you can register as homeless - but this cunning plan to get a cheap home will fall flat on its face.

I have no doubt that some people are scamming the system, but the plan outlined above, is not of them. It is an idiots guide to losing the home you already had.

Okay, it's naivety.
We are talking about families here, not individuals and nobody is going to say that they are staying with Mammy. They are going to say that they had to leave their rental apartment because they couldn't afford to pay the rent and now they were split up, sleeping with friends and family, that they couldn't live with mammy as she's too infirm and couldn't cope with the kids etc.
If the mother is claiming single parents supports then she moves into the father's house and rents it from him, gettingrent support from the State.

 

[Purple]

That would require you as the hotel owner to engage in the scam also, using public funds for illicit purposes.

How so? Is it up to her to police room occupancy?

 

[WolfeTone]

Okay, it's naivety.

There's quite a lot of it this morning!

They are going to say that they had to leave their rental apartment because they couldn't afford to pay the rent and now they were split up, sleeping with friends and family, that they couldn't live with mammy as she's too infirm and couldn't cope with the kids etc.

So in danger of not having a roof over their heads? Yes?
In which case they would be offered emergency hotel accommodation.
(Do they get choose the hotel? Im just wondering, because if they dont, and its a hotel where the owner does have integrity, who is not prone to scams that save money generated from not serving some cornflakes, eggs and a bit of bacon, wont this scupper the plan?)

If they accept emergency accommodation, they will be routinely assessed by care workers, who I'd imagine, would be clued in somewhat to exposing any sort of dastardly scam like this.
If I can see it the flaws from here, then those working in the field certainly will also.

How so?

Really? You need to have it explained to you that receiving public or charitable funds for the purposes of providing emergency accommodation to families, whilst knowing that there are no homeless families staying in the hotel and exploiting this situation to profit on savings from serving cornflakes, eggs and a bit of bacon, and cleaning costs is misleading at best, fraudulent at worst?

Or do you think this is just good commercial enterprise?

 

[Purple]

There's quite a lot of it this morning!



So in danger of not having a roof over their heads? Yes?
In which case they would be offered emergency hotel accommodation.
(Do they get choose the hotel? Im just wondering, because if they dont, and its a hotel where the owner does have integrity, who is not prone to scams that save money generated from not serving some cornflakes, eggs and a bit of bacon, wont this scupper the plan?)

If they accept emergency accommodation, they will be routinely assessed by care workers, who I'd imagine, would be clued in somewhat to exposing any sort of dastardly scam like this.
If I can see it the flaws from here, then those working in the field certainly will also.

What care worker in their right mind would get in the middle of that? The Irish Times and RTE would have a field day. The Journal would wet itself. Fintan O'School would probably turn himself inside out. Miriam Lord would write one of her sarcastic and ill-informed opinion pieces (an Opinion Piece is when someone presents unsubstantiated opinion as journalism; it's the Letting Off Steam of Newspapers. Many a good living is made off it as it is food for the minds of the chattering classes and the permanently outraged).

Really? You need to have it explained to you that receiving public or charitable funds for the purposes of providing emergency accommodation to families, whilst knowing that there are no homeless families staying in the hotel and exploiting this situation to profit on savings from serving cornflakes, eggs and a bit of bacon, and cleaning costs is misleading at best, fraudulent at worst?

Or do you think this is just good commercial enterprise?

The hotel owner (or more likely the manager as the owner is probably a pension fund) is getting paid to provide rooms. They are providing those rooms.
If we were to insist on those standards then should all the HSE and other State employees who do nothing much for their State money also be done for fraud?

 

[WolfeTone]

The Irish Times and RTE would have a field day. The Journal would wet itself. Fintan O'School would probably turn himself inside out. Miriam Lord would write one of her sarcastic and ill-informed opinion pieces

Wow! The plot thickens. There was me naively thinking it was a story

from a guy I know who told me

...but you have exposed multi-layers of this scam. Hotel managers are facilitating the bogus room rental and well known award winning journalists are providing the media cover so that nobody dare expose the real truth!

I can only summarize that you believe all this to be true?

I retract what I said about Conor Skehans article being awful, he did make at least one pertinent point - Only the Facts will do...

 

[Purple]

I'll bow out of this one here.

 

[WolfeTone]

The purpose of this thread was to discuss Conor Skehans article on homelessness.

As I have had to retract my initial view that it was awful, instead it has at least one pertinent point, then unless there are anu other related comments I kindly request moderator to close this topic to further replies.

 

[Peanuts20]

This is nonsense. Tell that to my brother who commutted weekly to Dublin. Tell that to me and the countless others who moved abraod, which is a heck of a lot further than Leitrim. Tell that to my sister who did two hour commutes. Tell that indeed to most of my family who live in different counties. The only family I have living in Dublin, D4 as it happens, they live there because they are wealthy. Oddly you think we should be entitled to live close to each other for family networds. But what you mean is those who get free housing get that choice. Nobody else does.

My arguement, if you bothered to read the rest of my post, is that moving away from the family network adds additional costs to people who quite often are not well paid. I never said someone had an entitlement.

I'm someone who moved out of Dublin to my wives home town simply for that family network. I'm also someone who lived abroad and when we did the maths in our case, it made no sense to live abroad or in Dublin where we had no network and made more sense for us to take a pay cut and move to a rural town. The opposite case also applies for a lot of people, moving away from family adds costs. Its as simple as that

I also have 2 uncles who managed to buy their own houses in the 70s in Dublin and Cork respectively, despite doing manual and relatively lowly paid jobs (mechanic and bar manager respectively) . Fat chance a mechanic or hair dresser or shop assistant has of trying to buy a house in Dublin these days. The long term socital impact of the lack of social housing in our cities is going to be disasterous. How are all these people expected to

Because of this comment:



No one seems to have any problem with people who buy their own home commuting long distances, but if someone who wants social housing is offered it away from their own community, they say that they don't want to move away from their family network.

If they are not working, they can move to Leitrim and build up networks there. And they can visit their family in Dublin and vice versa.

It's about time people who buy their own homes, who work and who pay taxes get priority.

Brendan

the sheer lack of compassion and understanding from people who are clearly mature and middle class on here is staggering. You may want to live in an Ireland where the poor, the downtrodden, the mentally ill, those who need help, those whose lives took a negative turn due to often no fault of their own are no longer a priority but are secondry to those of us who have the ability to own property but its not an Ireland I want a part of.

 

[Purple]

I also have 2 uncles who managed to buy their own houses in the 70s in Dublin and Cork respectively, despite doing manual and relatively lowly paid jobs (mechanic and bar manager respectively) . Fat chance a mechanic or hair dresser or shop assistant has of trying to buy a house in Dublin these days.

A bar manager is not a manual job and both a mechanic and a bar manager should be earning well above the average industrial wage. That said they will still struggle to buy a house in Dublin but so will most graduates.

the sheer lack of compassion and understanding from people who are clearly mature and middle class on here is staggering. You may want to live in an Ireland where the poor, the downtrodden, the mentally ill, those who need help, those whose lives took a negative turn due to often no fault of their own are no longer a priority but are secondry to those of us who have the ability to own property but its not an Ireland I want a part of.

What is frustrating is the idiotic narrative that this is the government's fault and that this is an Irish problem. This is a global problem caused by global issues. We can certainly do things to make it better... oh wait, we have doing things which are making it better; despite being the worst hit country in Europe during the crash, despite the total collapse of our housing sector and having an utterly dysfunctional and inefficient construction sector, despite already having a massively unbalanced taxation system which unfairly hits high earners, we still manage to be the 5th best country in the EU when it comes to homelessness.
If we lacked compassion we'd be worse off but if we didn't have such an emotive and ideologically laden national conversation about the issue we'd probably have no homelessness as the solutions are simple, fast, cheap and almost painless but we won't implement them because it doesn't suit the ideology of those in the homelessness industry and in fairness to Focus Ireland etc they are running a business.

 

[Blackrock1]

from what i can see some people wont be happy until every single person in the state is housed in an A rated 3 bed semi, anything less than that is indicative of a lack of compassion...

 

[Leo]

My arguement, if you bothered to read the rest of my post, is that moving away from the family network adds additional costs to people who quite often are not well paid. I never said someone had an entitlement.

Who benefits most from proximity of a family network? A couple struggling to pay a mortgage and manage kids while holding down two jobs, doing their best to pay their way, or a low work intensity household who are dependent on social welfare?

 

[The Horseman]

I also have 2 uncles who managed to buy their own houses in the 70s in Dublin and Cork respectively, despite doing manual and relatively lowly paid jobs (mechanic and bar manager respectively) . Fat chance a mechanic or hair dresser or shop assistant has of trying to buy a house in Dublin these days. The long term socital impact of the lack of social housing in our cities is going to be disasterous. How are all these people expected to


the sheer lack of compassion and understanding from people who are clearly mature and middle class on here is staggering. You may want to live in an Ireland where the poor, the downtrodden, the mentally ill, those who need help, those whose lives took a negative turn due to often no fault of their own are no longer a priority but are secondry to those of us who have the ability to own property but its not an Ireland I want a part of.

For a single person who saves an average of €50 per week for 10 yrs they have €26k or €100 per week for 5 yrs you have €26k. So if a couple each saved the same amount they have €52k either after 5 yrs or 10 yrs depending on the average saving.

So a graduate who gets a job after college at say 22 yrs of age and saves an average of €100 per week by the time they are in their late 20's they have enought with a partner for a reasonable deposit of €52k.

Saving an average of €100 per week should not be difficult if you expect to get a mortgage where your repayments would be anywhere between €800 and a €1000 per month or €400 to €500 each if you are a couple.

These figures are acheiveable for people who would be working for a couple of years and would not be on entry level wages.

There is not a lack of compassion in this thread, there is a however indications that people have a sense of entitlement to get what they want while not making some simple sacrifices to get what they want whereby others have made those scarifices and see others getting what they have sacrificed for without any scarifice.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

A bar manager is not a manual job

Stacking and changing kegs, loading fridges, clearing out empties, washing glasses, preparing drinks, wiping down surfaces, manhandling the odd drunk..........it's a pretty manual job!