Razvan-have EBS confirmed your account is now back in the frame of the review?
EBS What does an EBS "Variable Base Rate" mortgage mean?
- Thread starter tonymac
- Start date
Thats highly frustrating as my partner has held out on taking up a 3 year fixed rate of 3.15% in case it would impact on her emtitlement to be part of this cohorts attempt to be included in the review. I will still contact the EBS helpline next week even though ill get the same answers others got, a chance to give it to them over this which i intend to take. It seems by delaying on this theyre hoping itll just go away.
He was referring the final response letter I have received from them in Sumer 2017 were is mention at the moment not impacted and to contact FSO, but at the moment he advised me to wait until June.
In the mean time if there is any other evidence that will deem my account to be impacted,they will communicate that to me.
EBS was the biggest tracker seller in Ireland between 2004 to 2008 and I’m firmly convinced at this stage that the politicians and Central Bank will not act in our favor.
In 2013 Finance committee including Financial Regulator was in the same room with ex EBS CEO and all EBS Directors for 3 days in a row and they are well aware of the Project Nova and the transfer of Tracker loans customers to SVR.
They know that for the last 5 years and they did nothing, absolutely nothing.
EBS is currently in breach of contract with all the customers from 2004 & 2008 which they were illegal transfer to SVR.
That’s why EBS is last on the list.
They realized what impact it will have to our economy that’s why we have only one way to fix that, Padraic Kissane - Court.
That also possibly lead to another 2 or 3 diferrent USC and tax increase for the next 10 years.
The fines imposed by Central Bank to some of the banks is less than 0.001% from their overall yearly profit, so they don’t really care, they will do it again with the eyes close.
People die, they lose their home, they divorce because of the tracker issue and the CEO said sorry and they are keep going with their strategy and is working for them anyway.
I understand this issue is a criminal offense but at the moment no one has been convicted.
I'm with haven mortgages which was subsidiary of ebs in 2008. We took out mortgage in 2008 april/May started on fixed rate for 3 years which we were to go on the variable base rate then prevailing after this period. The variable base on the loan offer letter was 5.43% which at the time was the tracker rate for ltv>80% after 3 years like everyone else we just magically went to SVR. I NEVER received letter saying my mortgage was up for review but sent in loan offer stating what I thought and t is now logged as complaint and being investigated. I now receive letter every 28 days saying it may take months etc.
I don't know to just leave it go on and hope for the best or go with padraig kissane or likewise
I don't know to just leave it go on and hope for the best or go with padraig kissane or likewise
haveaniceday
Registered User
- Messages
- 142
Hi There Bill2018,
Can you post an image of your agreement of the rates etc on the loan offer ( block out any personal details) - are there any definitions of what the rates mean i.e conditions of the loan
do they define for you what a variable base rate is anywhere on the loan agreement?
does the loan offer say if a tracker is not available once the fixed term expires then you will go on at SVR? ( my broker though my did but it did not !)
My EBS loan also came through HAVEN - everyone who went through a broker for an ebs loan from the start of 2008 - all brokers would have dealt with Haven and not EBS directly.
HAve you asked your broker what they understood the 'variable base rate' to be-
I took out my loan in July at a rate of 5.53 % but can't find any reference to this rate on the archived version of their website?
I FOI'd my info from EBS but lots of info missing so I have gone back again to request missing info plus an explanation for the rate I was put on -
I think no way give up - if we gather up all the info and go to padraig kissane with it I think we can build a very strong case -
Can you post an image of your agreement of the rates etc on the loan offer ( block out any personal details) - are there any definitions of what the rates mean i.e conditions of the loan
do they define for you what a variable base rate is anywhere on the loan agreement?
does the loan offer say if a tracker is not available once the fixed term expires then you will go on at SVR? ( my broker though my did but it did not !)
My EBS loan also came through HAVEN - everyone who went through a broker for an ebs loan from the start of 2008 - all brokers would have dealt with Haven and not EBS directly.
HAve you asked your broker what they understood the 'variable base rate' to be-
I took out my loan in July at a rate of 5.53 % but can't find any reference to this rate on the archived version of their website?
I FOI'd my info from EBS but lots of info missing so I have gone back again to request missing info plus an explanation for the rate I was put on -
I think no way give up - if we gather up all the info and go to padraig kissane with it I think we can build a very strong case -
It doesn't define what a variable rate was but says the variable base after expiry of fixed rate will be variavke basis on loan offer letter but this just stated variable base 5.43% however the broker letter when I signed up for mortgage on my advice letter advised me to go on fixed rate for certainty for 3 years and only other options was tracker variable. If these were the only variables at time and this was definitely the basis of projected future rate and cost of mortgage after expiry of fixed rate then I should have been offered tracker and not just moved to svr.
There is an oireachtas answer which shows my rate as 5.43% with haven at time I took out mortgage if you search for it it shows all tracker rates available with aib ebs and haven from 2008
I don't see how they can argue that this was in fact an svr
There is an oireachtas answer which shows my rate as 5.43% with haven at time I took out mortgage if you search for it it shows all tracker rates available with aib ebs and haven from 2008
I don't see how they can argue that this was in fact an svr
That would be (more) significant evidence. Do you have a screen shot of this oireachtas answer? It was in May 2008 that EBS appeared to “magically transform” the variable basis of these loans from ECB base + margin to the traditional SVR.
I’ve attached image of the variable rate (SVR) in May 2008 (5.33%) but you are saying your variable base rate is 5.43%. This is important as EBS have always maintained that the variable base rate is SVR.
Furthermore LTV loans only appeared to be sold with tracker loans. I can’t find any information on LTV variable/SVR rates being sold by EBS between 2004-2008..notice how LTV are only sold with trackers (see image from 2006).
Attachments
I apologise the variable base I was to go on was 5.34% which at time correlates with tracker as I mentioned was listed on oireachtas answer
If won't let me put the link here as I'm only a new user. I tried uploading a screenshot but it won't work either on phone but the question asked is as follows. If you copy and paste into Google I'm sure it will bring you to content
Deputy Pearse Doherty asked the Minister for Finance the rates at which each of the State backed banks were offering tracker rate mortgages on 1 January in each of the years 2008 to 2013, in tabular form; and if he will make a statement on the matter
AIB Group (which includes EBS and Haven brands) had the below tracker rates available to New Home Loan (PDH) customers on 1st January (2008 to 2013). With regard to this the following should be noted:
- Where a range of rates / margins is quoted this varied depending on loan circumstances (eg. Loan to Value (LTV) and / or Loan Amount).
Home Loan (PDH) Tracker Interest Rates available on 1st Jan 2008-2013
Aib
01/01/2008
4.6% to 4.90%
(ECB@4%)
Ebs
4.6% to 5.25%
Haven
(ECB@4%)
4.8% to 5.34%
(ECB@4
If won't let me put the link here as I'm only a new user. I tried uploading a screenshot but it won't work either on phone but the question asked is as follows. If you copy and paste into Google I'm sure it will bring you to content
Deputy Pearse Doherty asked the Minister for Finance the rates at which each of the State backed banks were offering tracker rate mortgages on 1 January in each of the years 2008 to 2013, in tabular form; and if he will make a statement on the matter
AIB Group (which includes EBS and Haven brands) had the below tracker rates available to New Home Loan (PDH) customers on 1st January (2008 to 2013). With regard to this the following should be noted:
- Where a range of rates / margins is quoted this varied depending on loan circumstances (eg. Loan to Value (LTV) and / or Loan Amount).
Home Loan (PDH) Tracker Interest Rates available on 1st Jan 2008-2013
Aib
01/01/2008
4.6% to 4.90%
(ECB@4%)
Ebs
4.6% to 5.25%
Haven
(ECB@4%)
4.8% to 5.34%
(ECB@4
Bingo!
Completely up to yourself obviously but I think it would be wise to bring your case and this information to Padraic Kissane ASAP; it’s the first time I’ve seen a variable base offer that matches the advertised tracker (5.34%) and is different to the advertised variable/SVR (5.33%).
Attachments
Last edited:
For completeness sake here is the link to this answer by Fine Gael Minister for Finance Michael Noonan.
https://beta.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2017-04-04/231/#pq-answers
He is answering questions on AIB, EBS & Haven tracker rates because they are state owned banks. EBS had some wiggle room before as they have argued that variable base was the SVR as between 2004-mid 2008 both advertised “variable rate” and tracker were the same but then deviated from each other with EBS deciding that variable base loans were SVR’s and not tracker. This Haven example from Bill confirms that the variable base is tracker & not SVR..unless Haven magic up an SVR rate that was the exact same as tracker as EBS had done between 2004-mid 2008.
Also important Bill that they have said you are still in review and they can’t give you final response for a few months.
https://beta.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2017-04-04/231/#pq-answers
He is answering questions on AIB, EBS & Haven tracker rates because they are state owned banks. EBS had some wiggle room before as they have argued that variable base was the SVR as between 2004-mid 2008 both advertised “variable rate” and tracker were the same but then deviated from each other with EBS deciding that variable base loans were SVR’s and not tracker. This Haven example from Bill confirms that the variable base is tracker & not SVR..unless Haven magic up an SVR rate that was the exact same as tracker as EBS had done between 2004-mid 2008.
Also important Bill that they have said you are still in review and they can’t give you final response for a few months.
IdesofMarch
Registered User
- Messages
- 278
EBS, on the face of the information provided, have serious questions to answer
haveaniceday
Registered User
- Messages
- 142
Hi Bill 2018
I got my loan offer in jan 2008 - I am almost 100% sure were only offering EBS rates - they were really EBS - I have my brokers explanation to my solicitor at the time - because he was questioning who they were - the broker said
On Jan 1st EBS created Haven Mortgages as a dedicated separate legal entity to manage the broker market. This deal is being managed between EBS on Burlington Road and Haven
the loan offer i have has ebs written on it with no reference to haven.
I got my loan offer in jan 2008 - I am almost 100% sure were only offering EBS rates - they were really EBS - I have my brokers explanation to my solicitor at the time - because he was questioning who they were - the broker said
On Jan 1st EBS created Haven Mortgages as a dedicated separate legal entity to manage the broker market. This deal is being managed between EBS on Burlington Road and Haven
the loan offer i have has ebs written on it with no reference to haven.
Bill for clarification; on your loan offer where it details the interest rate you are to go onto after 3 years does it state the following :
“After 3 years: Variable Base (currently 5.34%)”
The variable interest rate basis is probably not included in your loan offer either even though your terms and conditions states that it is. The variable interest rate basis for your loan is ECB Base Rate + 1.34%. Haven seem to have a higher margin than EBS which was generally + 1.25 before they stopped tracking the ECB base rate around mid 2008 and turned them into SVR’s.
My conversations with my broker haven’t been fruitful but he did reference Haven and said they may be at fault. Perhaps that’s were the bodies are buried so to speak?
Haven are still in existence so you could contact them and request all correspondence during time of loan offers or get Pádraic Kissane to go digging for you!
“After 3 years: Variable Base (currently 5.34%)”
The variable interest rate basis is probably not included in your loan offer either even though your terms and conditions states that it is. The variable interest rate basis for your loan is ECB Base Rate + 1.34%. Haven seem to have a higher margin than EBS which was generally + 1.25 before they stopped tracking the ECB base rate around mid 2008 and turned them into SVR’s.
My conversations with my broker haven’t been fruitful but he did reference Haven and said they may be at fault. Perhaps that’s were the bodies are buried so to speak?
Haven are still in existence so you could contact them and request all correspondence during time of loan offers or get Pádraic Kissane to go digging for you!
Last edited:
Yes that's exactly what it says after 3 years variable base (currently 5.34%)
However I think after 3 years unjust went on to LTV svr. I trusted that because i hadn't heard from the banks or gotten a letter I wasn't affected but the more I heard padraig kissane etc on radio I said I better go digging what I had and have a look. I rang haven and they said they would log it and it gets logged ad complaint for compliance with central bank but I've heard nothing since only generic letters every 28 days.
My letter recommending that I go on fixed rate from my broker does reference that it offers me certainty and a cheaper lower rate for three years than 'current tracker rate 5.34%) which I believe is another reference to the 5.34 being a tracker along with oireachtas answer. I'm not too hopeful of a positive outcome reading some of interactions on here with banks etc
However I think after 3 years unjust went on to LTV svr. I trusted that because i hadn't heard from the banks or gotten a letter I wasn't affected but the more I heard padraig kissane etc on radio I said I better go digging what I had and have a look. I rang haven and they said they would log it and it gets logged ad complaint for compliance with central bank but I've heard nothing since only generic letters every 28 days.
My letter recommending that I go on fixed rate from my broker does reference that it offers me certainty and a cheaper lower rate for three years than 'current tracker rate 5.34%) which I believe is another reference to the 5.34 being a tracker along with oireachtas answer. I'm not too hopeful of a positive outcome reading some of interactions on here with banks etc
Bill-read the whole thread on this variable base issue. Evidence in support of our case overwhelming at this point. Assuming Haven were not offering a SVR/Variable rate I think your case might just push this over the line.
EBS’ defense on this issue is that the variable base rate was their SVR and not the tracker between 2004-2008. Problem for us up to now is that both advertised Variable/SVR & tracker rates were the same until mid 2008. Your case blows their argument out of the water as it shows that the variable base rate From Haven was advertised tracker and not a SVR.
But your right not to be overly optimistic; I don’t think they have the cash to redress the thousands of customers and FG will do all they can to avoid the political fallout that would occur so expect some more dirty tricks like AIB are pulling with prevailing rate issue.
@B26354, @Bikini Widow, @EbsLoannotrafor, @tonymac, @haveaniceday,
We have lots of evidence but because of the FG they are backing up AIB/EBS to support their political interest it will be a long and hard battle.
That’s why I think we need to get Charlie W to read our variable base thread and to publish on newspaper the reality on how the trackers magically transformed in SVR.
John MC ‘G needs to know also about the FG game to challenge them on the issue with false info about AIB/EBS rates.
I also think we need some information (maybe is hard to get but not impossible) about who was the FG sponsor, who finance their campaign in the last 10 years.
(FG is protecting the banks with a reason, they have common interest to protect €€€€€€€€€€€€)
If it was AIB/EBS then, imagine they will try their best to support the banks (they are already doing that).
This will be a massive political and financial blow in history.
I don’t care about politics, I just want back what was wrongfully taken from me.
We have lots of evidence but because of the FG they are backing up AIB/EBS to support their political interest it will be a long and hard battle.
That’s why I think we need to get Charlie W to read our variable base thread and to publish on newspaper the reality on how the trackers magically transformed in SVR.
John MC ‘G needs to know also about the FG game to challenge them on the issue with false info about AIB/EBS rates.
I also think we need some information (maybe is hard to get but not impossible) about who was the FG sponsor, who finance their campaign in the last 10 years.
(FG is protecting the banks with a reason, they have common interest to protect €€€€€€€€€€€€)
If it was AIB/EBS then, imagine they will try their best to support the banks (they are already doing that).
This will be a massive political and financial blow in history.
I don’t care about politics, I just want back what was wrongfully taken from me.
Hi Bill,
My advise is to go with Padraic Kissane, same like us.
Media & opposing politicians have already questioned this “sweetheart deal” between the FG govt and AIB. For example, Pearse Doherty has queried why AIB do not have to pay corpo tax for the next 20 years yet they know make huge profits while those on SVR’s get screwed with high rates.
We can only speculate on what FG knew about EBS when AIB took them over. However FG have been pretty clear about their plans for AIB and they want it (& EBS) to be off the state books as soon as possible. With that in mind it would make sense for them to hide EBS considering their plan and what we now know and the likely costs invlolved in paying off customers.
The worry is that opposition politicians have known about EBS’s hidden trackers since Ethna Tinney’s appearance at the oireachtas finance committee but they’ve chosen to do nothing about it.
I’ve had another look at her 2015 oireachtas meeting report on her tenure as an EBS board member during the time period in question. In this she has more or less acted as a whistleblower on the shenanigans that we are now paying for.
The July 2005 EBS board meeting was attended by Tinney, Alan Merriman and Ted McGovern amongst others. Merriman had just started with EBS as financial director. In 2015 Tinney confirmed that during that board meeting “no one was jumping up and down” about the plan to go from 5% to 60% of loan book being trackers.
In 2015 Merriman called trackers “madness” yet he said that at board meetings he “raised” concerns and risks were discussed but he did not oppose plan but EBS got “lots of things wrong.” He goes onto say that putting customers on fixed rates reduced risks for EBS.
Tinney for her part said that “the volumes of trackers that they were attracting blinded us to their dangers...and the final outcome was that they (EBS) couldn’t afford trackers...but the SVR is now shoring up the trackers....surprised that it didn’t strike the good brains on the board that this (plan) was dangerous.”
I’ve attached the image of Tinney’s statement. Hard to believe that politicians and the Central Bank didn’t act on this disclosure by an EBS board member or that media haven’t investigated further.
I’ve had another look at her 2015 oireachtas meeting report on her tenure as an EBS board member during the time period in question. In this she has more or less acted as a whistleblower on the shenanigans that we are now paying for.
The July 2005 EBS board meeting was attended by Tinney, Alan Merriman and Ted McGovern amongst others. Merriman had just started with EBS as financial director. In 2015 Tinney confirmed that during that board meeting “no one was jumping up and down” about the plan to go from 5% to 60% of loan book being trackers.
In 2015 Merriman called trackers “madness” yet he said that at board meetings he “raised” concerns and risks were discussed but he did not oppose plan but EBS got “lots of things wrong.” He goes onto say that putting customers on fixed rates reduced risks for EBS.
Tinney for her part said that “the volumes of trackers that they were attracting blinded us to their dangers...and the final outcome was that they (EBS) couldn’t afford trackers...but the SVR is now shoring up the trackers....surprised that it didn’t strike the good brains on the board that this (plan) was dangerous.”
I’ve attached the image of Tinney’s statement. Hard to believe that politicians and the Central Bank didn’t act on this disclosure by an EBS board member or that media haven’t investigated further.
