Trump Culture has arrived in O Connell Street,

[Sister Sara]

I'm not buying into all these arguments being spouted by the opposition parties either. The more I read about these protests it wasn't just the govt and recognised associations that were caught napping, but almost the entire political representation and media too.

While Mary Lou was criticising Mícheál Martin for not contacting the protesting groups she was apparently on her own holidays suggesting that she, and SF, were wholly unawares of the events to unfold. The same for Lab, Soc Dems and PBP with Paul Murphy getting an earful from some protesters on O'Connell St.

Apparently letters to govt, notices to IFA, IRHA, and preparations being made that were available on social media passed almost everyone's radar. SF hooking up with support friendly protestors in the border area after the protests had started.

One opposition TD in the Dáil confidence motion stated that the protestors he knew were Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael voters.

Some of the 'spokespersons' for the protestors have invoked the memory of 1916 Rising to make their claim to speak for the Irish people and to justify the blockade. So while the leaders of our political class were commemorating with honour that great, unmandated, unauthorised rebellion against the State, others were plotting actions of similar symbolism for 'the Irish people' but thankfully without the bloodshed.

I had to remind myself of some of the words of that proclamation where recently our elected President solemnly laid a wreath in honour of the agitators.

"Having organised and trained her manhood through her secret revolutionary organisation, the Irish Republican Brotherhood....we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State...Until our arms have brought the opportune moment for the establishment of a permanent National Government, representative of the whole people of Ireland and elected by the suffrages of all her men and women, the Provisional Government, hereby constituted, will administer the civil and military affairs of the Republic in trust for the people."

Quite the brass neck then too!

Its not hard to imagine that those in power today in Ireland would have condemned the 1916 Rising had they been there at the time.

The blockade was illegal and the authorities are full in their right to sanction those that organised and instigated it in due course. But I do not think that is the primary issue.

The protests/blockade happened and a group of otherwise ordinary working people showed their muscle and how vulnerable the State is. They, and those that support them are emboldened. I don't think this matter is going away any time soon rather a festering boil of multiple long-standing issues has popped - homelessness, housing, cost of living, illegal immigration, etc.

The political party mud-slinging will continue while around them agitators will mobilise and plan further.

The only way to settle this, imo, is to call-out the protestors to organise and campaign and to hold an election to show their true support.

 

[Sister Sara]

So lets help reduce climate change move the carbon taxes to the area which is actually causing the problem.

Those figures sound skewed. Aside from that, and as a modest red meat consumer it wouldn't be a big put out for me personally.

On the other hand, if the fuel price increases invoked the relatively peaceful protests, then such a move to the beef sector would surely invoke the violent insurrection?

 

[JoeRoberts]

Those figures sound skewed.

Indeed. But once its printed its fact. ! That is the world we live in. Ai will pick up on his post soon and start reporting it as fact. And on it goes.

 

[arbitron]

No point in commenting that something looks wrong, then providing no counterclaim.

Irish beef is relatively low carbon (<20kg CO2) compared to beef from other countries (due to climate and being grass fed) but it's still far more carbon and water intensive than pork, fish, or chicken. So @Purple 's numbers may be off but the point stands.

 

[JoeRoberts]

No point in commenting that something looks wrong, then providing no counterclaim

I provided the counter claim in a previous post. I wish i had the time to research some other claims and numbers thrown out on this site.
His point does not stand.

 

[cremeegg]

The production of one Kilo of red meat generates over 600Kg of CO2 equivalent,

Irish beef is relatively low carbon (<20kg CO2) compared to beef from other countries

Well which is it. Though obviously which ever it is Irish farmers are the best in the world.

So @Purple 's numbers may be off but the point stands.

Ah! No. over 600kg and <20kg are not close enough for the point to stand.

My suggestion is that Arbitron used a figure based on 100g rather than 1kg, and that referring to 100g of Protein, which equates to roughly one third the weight of beef.

Suggesting that Purple is right. Of course I may be wrong !

 

[Sister Sara]

So @Purple 's numbers may be off but the point stands.

The point stands insofar as the carbon emissions from beef produce relative to other meat or fish produce is concerned.

But for the Irish govt to consider transferring carbon taxes from fuel to Irish beef produce in the context of the protests being discussed is simply a non-runner without initiating further and widespread protests.

 

[Purple]

I'm not buying into all these arguments being spouted by the opposition parties either. The more I read about these protests it wasn't just the govt and recognised associations that were caught napping, but almost the entire political representation and media too.

While Mary Lou was criticising Mícheál Martin for not contacting the protesting groups she was apparently on her own holidays suggesting that she, and SF, were wholly unawares of the events to unfold. The same for Lab, Soc Dems and PBP with Paul Murphy getting an earful from some protesters on O'Connell St.
Apparently letters to govt, notices to IFA, IRHA, and preparations being made that were available on social media passed almost everyone's radar. SF hooking up with support friendly protestors in the border area after the protests had started.

They were all caught napping. The Shinners and the other ethno-nationalist populists jumped on the bandwagon after it started moving.

One opposition TD in the Dáil confidence motion stated that the protestors he knew were Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael voters.

I'm sure they were.

Some of the 'spokespersons' for the protestors have invoked the memory of 1916 Rising to make their claim to speak for the Irish people and to justify the blockade. So while the leaders of our political class were commemorating with honour that great, unmandated, unauthorised rebellion against the State, others were plotting actions of similar symbolism for 'the Irish people' but thankfully without the bloodshed.

I had to remind myself of some of the words of that proclamation where recently our elected President solemnly laid a wreath in honour of the agitators.

"Having organised and trained her manhood through her secret revolutionary organisation, the Irish Republican Brotherhood....we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State...Until our arms have brought the opportune moment for the establishment of a permanent National Government, representative of the whole people of Ireland and elected by the suffrages of all her men and women, the Provisional Government, hereby constituted, will administer the civil and military affairs of the Republic in trust for the people."

Quite the brass neck then too!

Absolutely, kind of like when the present incarnation of Sinn Fein claim a connection with Dev's Sinn Fein, who in turn claimed a connection with the 1916 Rising through the old IRA (which had nothing to do with the Provision IRA), when in fact it was the IRB (with Connelly etc) who organised the Rising, the IRA hated the IRB and Dev didn't even join the old version of Sinn Fein (which turned into Fianna Fail) until 1917. The Labour Party has more of a claim on the 1916 Rising since Connelly was one of the organiser.

Its not hard to imagine that those in power today in Ireland would have condemned the 1916 Rising had they been there at the time.

I agree. Killing unarmed policemen with their arms in the air is generally not approved of these days (unless you're a good republican robbing a bank).

The blockade was illegal and the authorities are full in their right to sanction those that organised and instigated it in due course. But I do not think that is the primary issue.

I agree.

The protests/blockade happened and a group of otherwise ordinary working people showed their muscle and how vulnerable the State is.

I hate that phrase "ordinary working people". What does it mean? Do people in that group somehow have more legitimacy? Are they more authentic? Are they more worthy? ... or are they just more Irish and more white?

They, and those that support them are emboldened. I don't think this matter is going away any time soon rather a festering boil of multiple long-standing issues has popped - homelessness, housing, cost of living, illegal immigration, etc.

In one of the most equal countries in the world with some of the lowest levels of poverty, best health outcomes, best educational outcomes, lowest levels of homelessness, most equality, lowest levels of corruption, housing costs that are well below the EU average (largely due to HAP and other massive social transfers) and, here's the kicker, fuel prices that in purchasing power parity terms are significantly below the EU average.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

The only way to settle this, imo, is to call-out the protestors to organise and campaign and to hold an election to show their true support.

As I states above my concern is that Sinn Fein seek to harness that support and their Trumpesque proto-fascist populist wing becomes more dominant. The line between anti-Government and anti-State was crossed by the protesters. Doing the same is in Sin Fein's DNA.

 

[Purple]

Ai tells me it is 26.2 kg in the uk.

Myclimate.org qoutes 895kg for a 737

No point in commenting that something looks wrong, then providing no counterclaim.

Irish beef is relatively low carbon (<20kg CO2) compared to beef from other countries (due to climate and being grass fed) but it's still far more carbon and water intensive than pork, fish, or chicken. So @Purple 's numbers may be off but the point stands.

Yep, I should have looked it up rather then relying on memory. It's 1Kg of beef Protein.
According to The Guardian "A kilogramme of beef protein reared on a British hill farm can generate the equivalent of 643kg of carbon dioxide. A kilogramme of lamb protein produced in the same place can generate 749kg. One kilo of protein from either source, in other words, causes more greenhouse gas emissions than a passenger flying from London to New York."

It was Christmas and I may have been drinking.

 

[galway]

It was Christmas and I may have been drinking

It is now Thursday 16 of April now that is a long time to be on a binge,
I am getting some enjoyment out of FF and FG trying to get back in to the good books with the most extreme end of the protesters,
I am sure the are happy to know it is business as usual from you know who,

 

[mathepac]

The production of one Kilo of red meat generates over 600Kg of CO2 equivalent,

I think a lot depends on the farming methods used. Traditional grass-fed animals produce far less CO2 and methane than corn-fed or intensively farmed animals.

[EDIT] crossed with other posts

 

[Sister Sara]

They were all caught napping.

Yes, that was my point.

I'm sure they were.

Yes, it is appears to be coming more evidently so, at least on the FF side.

Independent TD, Michael Fitzmaurice said in the Dáil;

"The IFA warned the Government a week beforehand. The dog on the street knew there was discontent. What was the difference in bringing the measures in the Sunday before to try to solve this? But no, the Government TDs will not listen to the people who elected them. I have been here for a lot of debates and never in my life have I got more emails off people who were disgusted. Do you know what? I went up to the people in Galway, people who had voted for the Government parties - for Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil - every time. They are decent people, and let no one say that they are far right either."

Add to that the three FF TD's statement ;

"We want home ownership to be an achievable reality. Not a distant hope. We must face that reality that the social contract is strained to breaking point."

Add to that concerned commentary by FF elders Ó Cuív, O'Dea and Ó Fearghaíl.

the EU average

this is similar to the trite responses we have been hearing all week - "biggest package per capita in the EU", or "first country in the EU" etc...etc...

As if politicians are oblivious to rising discontent in areas across the EU too.

These are the responses that demonstrate Govt is not listening to the communities that are standing up.

For the record, I wasn't protesting as I have nothing to protest about.

It's beyond time to start listening to communities that are protesting.

 

[Purple]

this is similar to the trite responses we have been hearing all week - "biggest package per capita in the EU", or "first country in the EU" etc...etc...

As if politicians are oblivious to rising discontent in areas across the EU too.

These are the responses that demonstrate Govt is not listening to the communities that are standing up.

For the record, I wasn't protesting as I have nothing to protest about.

It's beyond time to start listening to communities that are protesting.

Which all begs the question that, given the data I gave about how rich and equal we are and which you don't dispute, what do this class of discontent "ordinary working people" expect the government, and governments across Europe, to do?

 

[Sister Sara]

Which all begs the question that, given the data I gave about how rich and equal we are and which you don't dispute, what do this class of discontent "ordinary working people" expect the government, and governments across Europe, to do?

Gosh! I do not know! They appear to have a least one grievance, perhaps more? I heard fuel and energy prices was an issue, housing, undocumented immigration may be another....perhaps there may be more.

How will the government and political class ever find out?

 

[Purple]

Gosh! I do not know! They appear to have a least one grievance, perhaps more? I heard fuel and energy prices was an issue, housing, undocumented immigration may be another....perhaps there may be more.

How will the government and political class ever find out?

It seems you don't know. We know what the entitled classes are bleating on about. The question remains; what do this class of discontent "ordinary working people" expect the government, and governments across Europe, to do?

Are they so infantile and entitled that they expect their government to shield them from the vagaries of international affairs?
We have a decreasing rate of migration into Ireland, down 16% in 2024, with net migration down 25%. Net migration was 79,300, the lowest figure since 2007.
There are around 25,000 undocumented migrants in the country. Most of those arrived legally and overstayed their visa.
We received 18,560 international protection applications in 2024. The current approval rate is 30%.
The idea that we are being overwhelmed by illegal migrants is nonsense. How do the same class of discontent "ordinary working people" expect the government to stop the current flow? We are a small open economy. We have a land border with the UK. Do they want us to close that border? If not what do they want to happen?


Housing.

Ireland has a lower rate of "housing cost overburden" (spending over 40% of disposable income on housing) compared to peers. In 2023, only 5.2% of people in Irish cities were overburdened, compared to 23% in Denmark and 22% in Luxembourg.

15% of Irish households pay over 30% of their income on housing, compared to 20% across Europe.

We are third highest in the EU for the proportion of income spent on mortgage repayments but we have larger new homes than the EU average and they are of a higher quality.

Again, what do the discontent "ordinary working people" expect the government to do since they won't pay higher property taxes?

 

[Sister Sara]

It seems you don't know.

No, I don't know for certain. I'm trying understand.

15% of Irish households pay over 30% of their income on housing, compared to 20% across Europe.

I know fuel prices are issue as it widely expressed during the protests. I suspect there may be other issues.

We know what the entitled classes are bleating on about.

I hate this phrase "entitled classes", what does it mean?

The idea that we are being overwhelmed by illegal migrants is nonsense

You are speaking in national terms. Who suggested this?

Perhaps the issues are more localised? Small rural towns and villages having disproportionate amount of migration without the necessary investment in local resources such as housing, health, schools etc?

15% of Irish households pay over 30% of their income on housing, compared to 20% across Europe.

We are third highest in the EU for the proportion of income spent on mortgage repayments but we have larger new homes than the EU average and they are of a higher quality.

Why do you keep reverting to irrelevant EU stats?

If there was a spike in crime rates in Ballsbridge would you consider it a sufficient response by authorities to put extra resources in combatting crime in that area or would a " we have below EU/Denmark/Norway etc average rates of crime" be sufficient, and then not act on it?

I would suggest, from my understanding anyway, it is these type of trite "EU average" responses is what is contributing to frustrations arising in some communities, provoking responses as we saw in the fuel protest.

 

[Purple]

No, I don't know for certain. I'm trying understand.

Don't try too hard. Most of the people involved aren't worth your time.

I know fuel prices are issue as it widely expressed during the protests. I suspect there may be other issues.

Yes, our well below EU average fuel prices.

I hate this phrase "entitled classes", what does it mean?

People who think that the State should mitigate the effects of international price volatility on their business and generally act like their Mammy to protect them from the real world. They usually refer to themselves as "ordinary working people".

You are speaking in national terms. Who suggested this?

Who suggested what?

Perhaps the issues are more localised? Small rural towns and villages having disproportionate amount of migration without the necessary investment in local resources such as housing, health, schools etc?

Those requirements are assessed by the relevant State body before International Protection Applicants ae placed there. Migrants are free to live wherever they choose and have the same issues with access to services as the rest of us. They also disproportionately provide many of the services we as a country need. See nursing for example.

Why do you keep reverting to irrelevant EU stats?

I don't. I revert to relevant EU stats. If people want to moan and protest they have to understand the national and international context. At least they do if they want to have any credibility.

If there was a spike in crime rates in Ballsbridge would you consider it a sufficient response by authorities to put extra resources in combatting crime in that area or would a " we have below EU/Denmark/Norway etc average rates of crime" be sufficient, and then not act on it?

What's that got to do with anything?

I would suggest, from my understanding anyway, it is these type of trite "EU average" responses is what is contributing to frustrations arising in some communities, provoking responses as we saw in the fuel protest.

I agree; many people want to be insulated from reality and get upset when the reality of the given situation is pointed out to them. The Government should try harder to educate them so that they have at least somewhat realistic expectations.

 

[Sister Sara]

Don't try too hard. Most of the people involved aren't worth your time.

many people want to be insulated from reality and get upset when the reality of the given situation is pointed out to them.

I would have to disagree. If protests are occurring to the extent that they occurred during the fuel protests, that and knowing the increase in racist attacks against IPAS centres, then authorities would be minded to get involved in the communities where discontent is arising.

People are entitled to protest if they perceive and injustice or imbalance in the social contract, whether that injustice is real or not, whether it is exaggerated or not.

Ignoring it is potentially allowing fuel to be added to the flames.

 

[Purple]

I would have to disagree. If protests are occurring to the extent that they occurred during the fuel protests, that and knowing the increase in racist attacks against IPAS centres, then authorities would be minded to get involved in the communities where discontent is arising.

People are entitled to protest if they perceive and injustice or imbalance in the social contract, whether that injustice is real or not, whether it is exaggerated or not.

Ignoring it is potentially allowing fuel to be added to the flames.

Giving in to racism and xenophobia is not a good idea.
I'm also not in favour of giving in to hauliers and business owners who want their businesses subsidised while taking resources from the vulnerable.

By all means listen to them and engage with them but make it clear that blockades and intimidation from mobs will not be tolerated.

 

[Purple]

We buy a lot of aluminium where I work. Prices are up more than 50% since this time last year.
Who should we blockade and what roads should we close in order to force the Government to use other people's money to subsidise our business?