Bank of Ireland Tracker taken- Staff at the time.

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Rebuttal

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Sometimes when you are working within an organisation for a considerable period you become asocialised into the culture of the organisation and you do not see that the strategies employed by the firm are unfair or discriminatory. For example, the happenings at PTSB with regard to taking borrowers off tracker mortgages, from an internal viewpoint, was classed as being normal and not in anyway unfair.

Sometimes when you are so close to something you do not see the bigger picture, hence the idiom, not seeing the woods from the trees. Hope that clarify things for you Sarenco.
 
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rodger

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Monbretia,

I was surprised with your comment about taking a tracker

a lot didn't want to because there was no fixed option with it
I along with approx 10,000 other customers of Irish banks went from tracker to fixed.

I did this with both BOI and Aib

So I'm not sure what you mean?
 

Sarenco

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Sometimes when you are working within an organisation for a considerable period you become asocialised into the culture of the organisation and you do not see that the strategies employed by the firm are unfair or discriminatory. For example, the happenings at PTSB with regard to taking borrowers off tracker mortgages, from an internal viewpoint, was classed as being normal and not in anyway unfair.

Sometimes when you are so close to something you do not see the bigger picture, hence the idiom, not seeing the woods from the trees. Hope that clarify things for you Sarenco.
So you're suggesting that Monbretia may have seen, or may have even executed, strategies that were designed to trick people out of their trackers but was not consciously aware of this fact due to the effects of being socialised into the bank's culture.

Frankly, that's ridiculous.
 

Monbretia

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I didn't do anything to get people off trackers, it simply wasn't an issue back then, we are projecting what we know now back to a time when it wasn't relevant. Whatever was going on in HO there was nothing happening in branches where I was up to 2010 to get customers off trackers and they were happily still being issued until 2008, I left in 2010 so don't know what has happened since.

Rodger - different banks had different products like the current account mtg for example, it was a tracker but it could never be fixed. Often when I rang customers to ask about switching to a tracker they would actually decide to switch to fixed instead, I never saw a clause in any of those fixed rate appendix forms that they signed that mentioned anything about the tracker much less giving it up. What you went back to after your fixed depended on your original loan offer.

Always if someone asked could they fix later the standard answer was yes if fixed rates were available, like trackers there was never any guarantees that a fixed rate would always be available.
 

Bronte

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Monbretia what you say makes perfect sense. I was looking at getting a mortgage around 2005 or so, and so was a sibling, I wanted a fixed rate as that's what I've traditionally gone for so I didn't even entertain the idea of a tracker,but my sibling has a tracker. No bank hoodwinked me about this, and yes trackers were being pushed at the time.

What is most interesting though about your post that the others seem to have missed is what policy change happened later to stop people who started with trackers, fixed for a time but couldn't then get back their trackers, with the computers being changed.

This had to be a top level decision, following meetings, for which there has to be paper work, with an order to the IT people to make the physical changes in the customers accounts.
 

Bronte

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Looking for anyone that knows their stuff do tell me if I have a case??
I have an active complaint with FSOB , however BOI had denied any wrong doing but they are now re examining my case as they did not asnwer the complaint.

2003 - took out variable staff mortgage
2005- changed to tracker rate
2005- changed to staff tracker rate
2006 -changed to non variable staff rate
we were offered a lower staff non variable rate as it was lower than the tracker at this stage. No where on that documenation did it outline we would at this point lose our contractual right to return to the tracker rate. Plenty of staff at the time complained. -but got no where-stonewalled. Anyone that ignored that letter are still on that tracker today .
2007 - converted to a 2 year fixed rate.


Do I have a case?
Yes I think you have a case as you were not informed you would lose your tracker. But are you statute barred?
 

Monbretia

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Absolutely Bronte! something went on somewhere to maintain the default on these accounts to not roll back to trackers and it wasn't in branches.

Actually your point about different people going for different products reminds me of the whole endowment story. When I took out my mortgage endowments were supposed to be the best thing ever, in my office at the time there were 3 staff getting mortgages, I went for annuity and the other two went for endowment. I never liked the uncertainty of them whereas the other two were more than happy with the idea of it and thought I was mad!
 

Onceagain

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Bronte,

Currently the central bank are looking at case's over the 6 year period. Time will tell though.
 

Sarenco

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Did it or did it not happen at PTSB ?
PTSB were aggressively marketing trackers in 2006 and now has one of the largest tracker books of all the Irish lenders. Even the fixed rate mortgages written by PTSB at that time specified that borrowers could revert to their trackers on the expiry of the fixed term.

The interpretation PTSB subsequently placed on that term to disallow borrowers that broke out of their fixed term early to revert to a tracker rate was wholly artificial. However, that happened years later and I very much doubt anybody that was involved in this decision was not fully conscious of the effect of that decision, which seems to be your argument.
 

Sarenco

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Absolutely Bronte! something went on somewhere to maintain the default on these accounts to not roll back to trackers and it wasn't in branches.
Hi Monbretia

As a matter of curiosity, can you recall whether front line staff in 2006 would have been alert to the fact that the terms of fixed rate mortgages may have provided that borrowers would default to a variable rate rather than a tracker rate on the expiry of the fixed rate term?

PTSB were rightly criticised for not advising borrowers, at least in general terms, of the effect of breaking out of fixed terms early. However, back in 2006 the value of a tracker rate (as opposed to an SVR) may not have been so obvious.
 
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Rebuttal

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PTSB were aggressively marketing trackers in 2006 and now has one of the largest tracker books of all the Irish lenders. Even the fixed rate mortgages written by PTSB at that time specified that borrowers could revert to their trackers on the expiry of the fixed term.

The interpretation PTSB subsequently placed on that term to disallow borrowers that broke out of their fixed term early to revert to a tracker rate was wholly artificial. However, that happened years later and I very much doubt anybody that was involved in this decision was not fully conscious of the effect of that decision, which seems to be your argument.

Balderdash! You must be living in cloud cuckooland, there was a strategic decision made at upper management level in PTSB in relation to not allowing borrowers who had fixed for a period to return back on these original precious tracker terms as stated in their respective contracts. In fact the PTSB was appealing a High Court decision that judged PTSB to be in breach of contract in relation to such matters to the Supreme Court when the C.B.I. had to intervene. The C.B.I. basically told PTSB that the game was up and stop the charade. You then had the insincere vista of PTSB's C.E.O. Mr Jeremy Masdang giving an act of contrition in a press conference with notes made to self visible, including terms like, be serious, controlled and no smiling. Come on, who are you trying to fool, with this post.
 

Somar

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Couldn't agree with you more Rebuttal. And what is even more shocking is the fact that hard working customers of PTSB were the tax payers that kept the bank afloat. PTSB have now put a Mortgage Review Panel in place to review all these " shud be" tracker products in house again, more cronies to investigate the original cronies!!! Can't imagine they will come up with anything positive for customers induced off their trackers. Hope the CB finally show them up for what they are and PTSB own up to their wrong doings and square up with the people that have kept them in existence. Masdeng must not be the smartest tool in the box if he can't see that!!
 

Sarenco

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Balderdash! You must be living in cloud cuckooland, there was a strategic decision made at upper management level in PTSB in relation to not allowing borrowers who had fixed for a period to return back on these original precious tracker terms as stated in their respective contracts. In fact the PTSB was appealing a High Court decision that judged PTSB to be in breach of contract in relation to such matters to the Supreme Court when the C.B.I. had to intervene. The C.B.I. basically told PTSB that the game was up and stop the charade. You then had the insincere vista of PTSB's C.E.O. Mr Jeremy Masdang giving an act of contrition in a press conference with notes made to self visible, including terms like, be serious, controlled and no smiling. Come on, who are you trying to fool, with this post.
What are you talking about?

Monbretia stated on this thread that there was no attempt where s/he worked to remove borrowers from tracker rates back in 2006. It would have been very strange if this was not the case as all banks were actively encouraging borrowers with variable rate mortgages to switch to trackers as late as July 2008.

Another poster queried the veracity of Monbretia's statement and you suggested that there were in fact such attempts back in 2006 but that Monbretia couldn't see this as a result of being socialised into the bank's culture. This is patent nonsense and I'm pretty sure you now see this so you've switched your argument to what happened in PTSB.

Fine.

PTSB clearly made a strategic decision in 2009 not to allow borrowers that broke out of fixed term mortgages to revert to their trackers and they tried to hang this decision on a clever but wholly artificial interpretation of their own mortgage terms. However, this decision was made in 2009 - not in 2006.

Also, as you said yourself, this was a conscious, strategic decision by PTSB. It was not an unconscious or unconsidered decision that resulted from executives being socialised into the culture of the bank. Frankly, that's just physco-babble.

Nobody is arguing (well, I'm certainly not) that the decision taken by PTSB was correct or in any way appropriate.

However, the debacle at PTSB has nothing to do with your suggestion that Monbretia would not have been in a position to appreciate the actions or strategies of his/her bank back in 2006.
 
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Rebuttal

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What are you talking about?

Monbretia stated on this thread that there was no attempt where s/he worked to remove borrowers from tracker rates back in 2006. It would have been very strange if this was not the case as all banks were actively encouraging borrowers with variable rate mortgages to switch to trackers as late as July 2008.

Another poster queried the veracity of Monbretia's statement and you suggested that there were in fact such attempts back in 2006 but that Monbretia couldn't see this as a result of being socialised into the bank's culture. This is patent nonsense and I'm pretty sure you now see this so you've switched your argument to what happened in PTSB.

Fine.

PTSB clearly made a strategic decision in 2009 not to allow borrowers that broke out of fixed term mortgages to revert to their trackers and they tried to hang this decision on a clever but wholly artificial interpretation of their own mortgage terms. However, this decision was made in 2009 - not in 2006.

Also, as you said yourself, this was a conscious, strategic decision by PTSB. It was not an unconscious or unconsidered decision that resulted from executives being socialised into the culture of the bank. Frankly, that's just physco-babble.

Nobody is arguing (well, I'm certainly not) that the decision taken by PTSB was correct or in any way appropriate.

However, the debacle at PTSB has nothing to do with your suggestion that Monbretia would not have been in a position to appreciate the actions or strategies of his/her bank back in 2006.



Sarenco,

it took you just under an hour to come up with this tripe. Stop defending the indefensible, that being the recent banks behaviour towards their mortgagors. Monbrieta, no offence intended to this poster, was most likely not in the upper echelons of management in the bank he/she worked for, so would not be aware of any strategic decision made to usurp borrowers off their legally contracted tracker mortgage terms. Persons like Monbrieta would be told to implement the companies policy and practices in relation to this, that is all.

Asocialisation in large organisation is studied in depth worldwide and is not psycho babble as you so ignorantly pointed out. However, people in lofty positions of management are not as prone to this phenomenon as the subordinates below them. They take conscious and deliberate decisions having an overview of all factors that affect same.

The Central Bank of Ireland is currently engaged in an investigation to establish whether the despicable practices that happened at PTSB, happened across the banking sector in general and where in fact systemic. To even consider such an investigation the C.B.I. must have strong anecdotal evidence that this was the case. Padraic Kissane posted a thread on this site on this very matter and I for one am in complete agreement with him, that they are. No doubt the investigation in hand will turn up all types of unsavoury behaviours by the banks, then it will be you that will change tact, but not before you eat humble pie.
 
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Sarenco

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I'll try once more.

Monbretia has said repeatedly that there was no attempt to remove trackers from borrowers back in 2006. It simply didn't happen.

Why are you doubting his/her word?

Why would banks on the one hand take steps to remove borrowers from trackers at the same time that they were ringing borrowers to ask them if they wanted to switch from SVRs to trackers? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Monbretia has said repeatedly that s/he was not told to implement any policy to remove borrowers from trackers because there was no such policy at that time. Why are you finding that so difficult to accept?

I simply don't understand why you can't accept the word of another poster who has no reason to mislead anybody and keep insisting that the poster has somehow been blinded by some physcological phenomenon such that s/he is suffering from a corrupted or imperfect recall of events from 2006. That just doesn't bear any reasonable scrutiny.

Again, i am not defending the actions of any lender. I have already said as much as regards the decision taken by PTSB with regard to not allowing borrowers who broke out of fixed terms to revert to trackers where this was provided for in their contracts.

If the Central Bank does find that other lenders took a similar approach to PTSB in similar circumstances or indeed if the Central Bank finds that any lenders took any other strategic or concerted steps to deceive or trick borrowers out of tracker mortgage rates, then I will be the first to applaud the Central Bank. No need for me to change tack or eat humble pie.

I understand now that you are not in fact saying that the decisions taken by PTSB were a result of the socialisation of executives into the corporate culture of the bank. Glad we cleared that up.
 

Monbretia

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To answer you Sarenco, there were different types of fixed rates. For example if a person took a new mortgage fixed for say the first 2 yrs then the loan offer would say under the rate part the fixed rate and what type of rate thereafter, be it tracker or variable. For a period while trackers were everywhere practically all mortgages issued on this basis would have been reverting to tracker. These mortgage holders would get a letter a month or so before their fixed rate was up giving them the options of whatever new fixed rates were there, if they did not tick a box for a new fixed rate the loan would automatically on maturity go back to whatever rate was specified in their original loan offer. When this was a tracker they would get ECB plus whatever margin their loan offer stated. There was not a box to tick on the letter to go to tracker because that would automatically happen if you didn't want a further fixed rate, it wasn't an option as such, the loan was a tracker. I can't recall the exact wording of the letter, I don't think it would have spelled out what actual rate you returned to if a tracker as there were many different margins a person could be on, any reference to what would happen if you didn't pick a fixed was more likely to just refer to the rate specified on your loan offer. Any loan offer that said fixed for x time & thereafter ECB+ whatever should automatically go back to tracker when the fixed matured. I regularly called people re the letters and explained that if they wanted to go back to tracker (which to most people just meant variable) then they were to do nothing, no need to return the letter with the fixed options.

It was different where someone chose to switch to a fixed rate where they may have had a variable mortgage for some years, they would sign a fixed rate appendix to switch and when the fixed ended they would go back to whatever they came from, if that was a variable rather than a tracker they would return to the variable rate being offered at that time. There would be no mentions of trackers in their case unless it was during one of the many campaigns to get customers to switch to them, in that case they might turn up on my list to contact. If they did switch to tracker and then subsequently fix they had no automatic right to go back to a tracker if they were no longer being issued at the time of maturity of the fixed rate, if they were still there they could have one, if they were gone the original loan offer dictated rate.

Again it never happened while I worked there that we in the branch actively tried to get people off trackers, some posters clearly don't believe me, I don't care. Yes indeed I was only one of the plebs outside of Head Office but I was the mortgage advisor in my branch and responsible for the branches lending, I can honestly say I never advised anyone of something I did not think was in their best interest, now hindsight is marvellous and if I made mistakes it was with the right intentions (buying bank shares myself was one I was guilty of :) ) I knew many of the head office lending staff and would be in contact practically daily but while we often discussed the bad lending being done and the lax guidelines, trackers were never a hot item at that time.

However I definitely believe at some stage after 2010 there was something done to the default on these loans as too many people did not automatically revert, there is a very interesting thread on Rollercoaster by Lucybousy with lots of case, I think she also posted here about her case.
 
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