That's what I still need to check with a phase tester to see when power is supplied.
Smart meter/tariff & "Nightsaver" night storage heaters
- Thread starter ClubMan
- Start date
Probably worth pointing out it is now illegal for anyone (including home owner) other than a qualified electrician to make any changes within the consumer unit. If you're going to chance it, make sure it looks professional!
I am an retired electrician. The amount of over regulation in this country is beyond reasonable.
A new time switch could be fitted legally if clubman identified the other end of the grey cable which is taped up at his smart meter. This is switching his storage heating contactor. With his main switch turned off he could cut this cable before it enters his MCB board.
He can then wire a new time switch powered from a 13 amp socket and connect the two cores in the grey cable to the common and normally open contacts of the new time switch.
Or he could risk imprisonment if he decides do interfere with his MCB board.
He could also get a registered electrician to do the alterations on his MCB board. The electrician might tell him he can only certify the job if he replaces the entire MCB board and tests all the wiring in his house.
Perhaps, but I've yet to hear of a single householder being targeted. I have however heard of a few unqualified cowboys passing themselves off as electricians being prosecuted on the basis of dodgy work that endangered the lives of the occupants. Prior to that legislation there was little or no recourse for such works.
I've sat back and watched this thread as I, too, have a storage heater that appears to switch on at night only. I didn't use it when I moved in because I didn't know whether it even worked so was surprised initially that it did. Having checked readings regularly over a few months (a while back), I'm confident that it only switches on a night. My night readings make up 70% of my lecky bill because I switch immersion and heating on only at night. I recently checked my fuse board and see the below structure which I presume looks after the switch for the heaters at night ?
@ClubMan
I did some searching about auxillary switches on smart meters.
AI says smart meters can have an auxiliary switch for storage heaters. So don't attempt any alterations. The extra grey cable is probably connected into the meter.
If your contactor is not switching on at night, it could be a faulty contactor.
Or possibly the auxillary switch is not programmed to operate.
You could contact ESB Networks and enquire if your smart meter is set up to switch storage heaters.
"Yes, many modern smart meters have built-in auxiliary switches, called Auxiliary Load Control Switches (ALCS), to control a second electrical circuit for devices like storage heaters or heat pumps. These switches can be programmed by the supplier to turn a second circuit on or off based on a schedule, like traditional Economy 7 meters, or to receive commands for real-time load control.
How it works
I did some searching about auxillary switches on smart meters.
AI says smart meters can have an auxiliary switch for storage heaters. So don't attempt any alterations. The extra grey cable is probably connected into the meter.
If your contactor is not switching on at night, it could be a faulty contactor.
Or possibly the auxillary switch is not programmed to operate.
You could contact ESB Networks and enquire if your smart meter is set up to switch storage heaters.
"Yes, many modern smart meters have built-in auxiliary switches, called Auxiliary Load Control Switches (ALCS), to control a second electrical circuit for devices like storage heaters or heat pumps. These switches can be programmed by the supplier to turn a second circuit on or off based on a schedule, like traditional Economy 7 meters, or to receive commands for real-time load control.
How it works
- Integrated or external: The ALCS can be built directly into the smart meter or be a separate, "HAN Connected" device that communicates with the meter via the Home Area Network (HAN).
- Supplier control: A supplier can set up a pre-agreed switching schedule, like the one used for off-peak tariffs."
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Thanks @S class. Apologies but I still haven't properly investigated to ascertain for sure if/when the storage heaters are powered and charging up when switched on at the wall switch. I think that the possibilities are..
I'll try to do a proper investigation over the weekend. It's all a bit mystifying and frustrating to be honest. I have no immediate plans to make any changes just yet but thanks for the warning.
(I'm capable of doing basic electrical work but am a little wary when it comes to heavy load appliances and messing with the fusebox....).
Thanks to you and others for feedback so far. I wish that ESB Networks and their smart meter installation contractors (KN Circet in my case) made things clearer about the implications of smart meter installation for night rate/storage heater users in the first place. I'm beginning to regret acceding to the installation at this stage as I may have been better off on the old day/night meter.
- They're never powered because the timer that used to enable the night rate power supply is gone and that circuit is effectively "dead"
- They're powered any time they're switched on (which would be bad obviously)
- They're powered only during night rate hours (this seems unlikely given that the installation of the smart meter seems to have involved the removal of the night rate timer switch and possible severing of the night rate power supply cable)
I'll try to do a proper investigation over the weekend. It's all a bit mystifying and frustrating to be honest. I have no immediate plans to make any changes just yet but thanks for the warning.
(I'm capable of doing basic electrical work but am a little wary when it comes to heavy load appliances and messing with the fusebox....).
Thanks to you and others for feedback so far. I wish that ESB Networks and their smart meter installation contractors (KN Circet in my case) made things clearer about the implications of smart meter installation for night rate/storage heater users in the first place. I'm beginning to regret acceding to the installation at this stage as I may have been better off on the old day/night meter.
I see from @ClubMan's previous post about smart meters that you have one installed. So because your storage heaters are switching at night, there is definitely an auxillary switch built onto the smart meter to control storage heating.
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I think the grey cable is still connected to the smart meter.
If it was no longer connected it probably would have been taped up and left loose rather than tucked into the smart meter.
If your storage heaters operated last winter and your electricity bills haven't greatly increased, they must be only switched on at night.
If it was no longer connected it probably would have been taped up and left loose rather than tucked into the smart meter.
If your storage heaters operated last winter and your electricity bills haven't greatly increased, they must be only switched on at night.
I remembered sending an email to ESB Networks enquiring about the storage heater time switch.
I searched back and I sent the enquiry on 14/04/2022.
I got an immediate reply but no further follow up.
I decided not to allow the installation of a smart meter because of the lack of clear information about what the smart meter installation would involve.
"Hello,
I currently have a day and night rate meter and time clock.
Will the time clock be removed as part of the smart meter installation.
I am presuming that the time clock is unnecessary as the smart meter has built in timer facilities.
Will there be an installation charge for changing from day and night rate to single tariff rate to a customer with a smart meter. Currently there is a charge for removing or providing a day and night rate time clock."
"Good Afternoon ............,
Thank you for your email which has been forwarded to our Smart Metering Department who will be in contact with you directly.
Please contact me again if I can be of further assistance.
Kind regards,
Jenny
ESB Networks Customer Care | T: 1800372757 | +353 21 2386555 | F: +353 21 4844261 | www.esbnetworks.ie"
I searched back and I sent the enquiry on 14/04/2022.
I got an immediate reply but no further follow up.
I decided not to allow the installation of a smart meter because of the lack of clear information about what the smart meter installation would involve.
"Hello,
I currently have a day and night rate meter and time clock.
Will the time clock be removed as part of the smart meter installation.
I am presuming that the time clock is unnecessary as the smart meter has built in timer facilities.
Will there be an installation charge for changing from day and night rate to single tariff rate to a customer with a smart meter. Currently there is a charge for removing or providing a day and night rate time clock."
"Good Afternoon ............,
Thank you for your email which has been forwarded to our Smart Metering Department who will be in contact with you directly.
Please contact me again if I can be of further assistance.
Kind regards,
Jenny
ESB Networks Customer Care | T: 1800372757 | +353 21 2386555 | F: +353 21 4844261 | www.esbnetworks.ie"
What does that mean? There's no switch for my storage heaters other than the wall switch and the erstwhile (?) rotary timer that used to be in the meter box before the day/night meter was removed and the smart meter installed.
Edit: sorry, I misread this as there being some auxiliary switch on the storage heater!
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The seperate rotary time switch was primarily used to switch the old meter from the day counter to the night counter. But it had an extra auxillary switch contact which was used to switch on the storage heater contactor at your MCB board.
Now based on @elcato's installation there is definitely an auxillary switch contact, to switch on the storage heating, built into his smart meter.
I am presuming that your smart meter also has an auxillary switch contact and the extra grey wire at your meter is connected to this auxiliary switch.
This auxillary switch needs to be programmed to switch on at 11.00pm and off at 8.00pm.
Check out to see if your storage heating is actually switching on at 11.00pm.
Thanks again for the explanations and attempts at remote diagnosis (I know from experience how difficult that can be in the IT sphere!) @S class. I will investigate over the weekend but did hear that "clunk" from the fusebox at 11pm which sounds like a relay being activated and maybe that's part of the overall mechanism that is controlling the overnight powering/charging of the storage heaters. And if I switch them on now (23:16) at the wall switch I can hear the faint hum from them charging up. I need to check whether or not they're consuming electricity outside of the 11pm-8am night rate period. But maybe the smart meter installation did take account of the night rate storage heater configuration after all? Hopefully it did and I've been worrying about nothing.
Thanks again for your feedback and patience!
You mean in terms of how exactly they're wired and controlled from the meter/fuse boxes etc.? You mentioned that you used to be an electrician. Didn't you deal with them in your job? Just curious.
I've left mine on for now to charge overnight on low input and will check in the morning to see whether or not it's still charging before and after the 8am night rate cut-off point. It might eliminate the need to probe with a phase tester.
Ok, checked this morning after 8am and couldn't hear any hum so it looks like it may have stopped charging at 8am suggesting that the smart meter does have the ability to switch the storage heater circuit on/off built in after all. (It's a pity the storage heaters don't have a pilot light to indicate when they're powered... There's a possible DIY hack for me to look into 
). I'll need to double check with a phase tester that there's no power outside of night rate hours just to be certain. And I must see if I can find info about my smart meter model and its seeming ability to control the storage heater circuit. It could be that this whole thread was unnecessary on my part after all. Which would be fine by me!
). I'll need to double check with a phase tester that there's no power outside of night rate hours just to be certain. And I must see if I can find info about my smart meter model and its seeming ability to control the storage heater circuit. It could be that this whole thread was unnecessary on my part after all. Which would be fine by me! 