Smart meter/tariff & "Nightsaver" night storage heaters

[ClubMan]

I'm confused about the use of "Nightsaver" night rate storage heaters and a smart meter in smart tariff mode (MCC016 I think). Maybe somebody has some insight...

In the past I had a physical "Nightsaver" dual mode day/night meter and the storage heaters would charge up overnight on the night rate electricity.

My understanding was that with that setup the meter itself switched from day to night supply for the house so all appliances inside used night rate electricity in the off peak hours. I.e. during the day the electricity supply was provided by and metered by the day meter, while at night it was supplied and metered by the night meter.

On the other hand I always heard what sounds like a relay in the fuse/circuit breaker box switching at 11pm (Summer) or midnight (Winter) so I presumed that that had something to do with the switchover and/or the charging of the storage heaters.

However, now that I'm on a smart meter and smart tariff I'm not sure how things work. If I switch the storage heaters on at the wall switch will they consume electricity as long as they are switched on - night, day or peak? I obviously only want them using night rate electricity!

Do I, perhaps, need to retrofit the storage heaters with local timers so that they only charge up during the smart tariff night rate? Or will something still ensure that their circuit is only live during off peak hours?

An initial test suggests that once I switch them on at the wall switch they are charging up so I obviously don't want them consuming electricity constantly and especially outside of night rate hours.

If they do need timer retrofitting can anybody recommend what I need and if someone with basic electrical knowledge can do it themselves?

The house was built in the mid 1990s in case that matters and the original bulky Dimplex storage/convection heaters are still in place. They're bulky but still working fine and I'm not very house proud so I'm not inclined to change them.

Thanks.

Edit: this earlier thread deals with some of my previous confusion about the interaction between smart meters and night rate storage heaters in case it helps. Maybe not...

Nightsaver house + smart meter -> nightsaver tariff eligibility?

I live in an urban "nightsaver" house - i.e. one with storage heaters and immersion that operate overnight. Up to recently I had a day/night nightsaver meter - i.e. one with separate day/night unit readings. I have always been on, and currently remain on, a nightsaver tariff with different...

www.askaboutmoney.com

 

[S class]

Did everything in your house use night rate or was the night rate only for the storage heaters ?

 

[ClubMan]

On the old physical day/night meter the whole house would switch over to night rate. It was the traditional ESB Nightsaver house from that era (1990s). I just don't understand how a smart meter and tariff affect things. And if I need to add "local" timer control to the storage heaters now?

 

[S class]

There was a sealed time switch supplied by ESB networks which was used to switch between the day and night counters on your old meter.

This is a big bulky switch maybe 150 mm ×150 mm.
This might have been removed or disconnected. It's not needed with a smart meter.

There is an auxiliary switch on this which can be used to switch a contactor which supplies your storage heaters. Or it can directly switch the storage heaters.

Can you post a few photos of your meter and fuseboxes.
Depending on whether this large time switch is there or not I can give you more information.

 

[ClubMan]

Thanks @S class - I thought that you might chip in based on the other thread that I linked and I appreciate it.

I'll have to take a few pics tomorrow but my smart meter is what I think is a standard self contained smart meter and my fusebox is pretty standard for a 1990s house. I might need to take the casing off to see what's inside I guess.

I do know that there is usually a "clunk" which sounds like a relay switch from the fusebox inside the house at 11/midnight but I never knew what this was to be honest.

I'll post back tomorrow with photos.

 

[Sarah Ryan]

On the other hand I always heard what sounds like a relay in the fuse/circuit breaker box switching at 11pm (Summer) or midnight (Winter) so I presumed that that had something to do with the switchover and/or the charging of the storage heaters.

Yes correct that was the sound the fuse board makes when the storage heaters switched on in the night time, I used to have them myself in my old apt.
In theory, the fuse light at each heater should not come on until you are into the night rate, unsure about the smart tariff though. This is the one you should be on??

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[ClubMan]

Thanks. I haven't got around yet to taking photos of the smart meter and innards of the "fuse" box (it's all circuit breaker switches and not actual fuses).

There is no fuse light on my storage heaters for night charging mode. Just the wall switch to enable it and then, at least in the past, some form of timer switch (at the meter or fuse box) enabled the power for overnight charging of the storage heater. I'll have to use a phase tester to see when exactly it's powered.

The convection mode has a separate wall switch and then a rocker switch with a light on the heater itself but I know that this uses electricity on demand. I'm just not clear about if/how/when the storage heaters charge up now that I'm on a smart meter and tariff (MCC012).

I'm on the Electric Ireland SST -30% discount plan which has three time of day unit rates: Day (8 am-11 pm), Peak (5 pm-7 pm), and Night (11 pm-8 am). Obviously I only want the storage heaters charging during some portion of the Night rate period.

I'll investigate a bit more and post back anon... Thanks for all the feedback so far.

 

[Sarah Ryan]

There is no fuse light on my storage heaters for night charging mode.

That's a pity, I had a problem with my fuse box at one point, I was getting the day rate at night and then the night rate at day, the only reason I copped it at the start was the lights on at the wall and the very low ESB bill that followed!!

I have heard of a couple of people in my old complex moving over to the Ecovolt? heaters and being happy with them. But a good working storage heater is not to be scoffed at once you know how to use them properly.

I would have thought on that plan they would still kick in from the 11/8 times.

 

[S class]

@ClubMan

Is there something like this near your smart meter

 

[ClubMan]

Hi @S class - thanks for that. No, nothing like that in my meter box and there's nowhere else that it might be other than inside the fusebox inside the house which I still haven't yet looked inside. And I still haven't checked the storage heaters with a phase tester to see when the supply is live - e.g. when switched on at the wall switch any time of the day or only during the night rate tariff period etc. I was fairly sure that my storage heaters were only charging up at night last winter when I was on a smart meter but still in MCC02 Day/Night mode and on a Day/Night tariff. I certainly didn't notice my bills being much higher than expected which would have been the case if they were consuming electricity 24/7 even with a thermostat. But then that would suggest that something somewhere was enabling the supply to them during the night rate period and switching it off during the day. Confusing...

 

[S class]

There is an extra greyish cable that appears to be taped up with black insulation tape.

This is probably the switch wire to operate the storage heating contactor in your fuse board.

You will need to get a new time switch to operate the contactor.

 

[lff12]

The house was built in the mid 1990s in case that matters and the original bulky Dimplex storage/convection heaters are still in place. They're bulky but still working fine and I'm not very house proud so I'm not inclined to change them.

Are you living beside me by any chance? Not a lot of 1990s houses supplied with old school Dimplex storage heaters, right?

 

[lff12]

That's a pity, I had a problem with my fuse box at one point, I was getting the day rate at night and then the night rate at day, the only reason I copped it at the start was the lights on at the wall and the very low ESB bill that followed!!

That happened to me in my last apartment before I bought the house, ESB were constantly sending people to replace the broken meter with a smart meter but I had no idea where it was and no access to the only box it was likely to be in, and luckily enough the few people likely to have keys were never around when they arrived. I let the landlady know when I was leaving that it probably needs to be fixed but like yourself, my bills suddenly dropped from up to 125 a month to 25-45 ...

 

[ClubMan]

Are you living beside me by any chance? Not a lot of 1990s houses supplied with old school Dimplex storage heaters, right?

I would have assumed that there were lots where people hadn't replaced them in the meantime?

There is an extra greyish cable that appears to be taped up with black insulation tape. This is probably the switch wire to operate the storage heating contactor in your fuse board.

Possibly a good spot but I'll need to check if any of the cables are taped off/terminated within the meter box. I didn't think that they were.

Thinking about my old day/night meter I think that the meter box contained that and the sort of timer that you mentioned above so presumably if that's gone since the installation of the smart meter then there's no timer to control the night storage heater circuit? But then again they do charge up but they're off at the moment until I figure out if they're charging during the day (which I obviously don't want) or at night.

You will need to get a new time switch to operate the contactor.

Who would do that? An electrician or ESB Networks?

Or would it be simpler to retrofit timers (if possible) on the two storage heaters, or maybe even just upgrade the storage heaters to more modern models? (Even though the current ones are bulky I'm inclined to just keep them if possible).

 

[S class]

Thinking about my old day/night meter I think that the meter box contained that and the sort of timer that you mentioned above so presumably if that's gone since the installation of the smart meter then there's no timer to control the night storage heater circuit?

Yes, It's gone.

That grey cable is very likely to have connected to the removed time switch.

The other end of this cable should be seen at or inside your fuse board. It's an easy job to reroute this to a new timer, but you would need to be confident and competent to work on the fuse board.

Any electrician could fit a new time switch at your fuse board.
It's not part of ESB Networks equipment.

 

[ClubMan]

Thanks @S class. I'll hopefully investigate further tomorrow during daylight. If part of the installation of a smart meter involves them removing the night rate timer switch then I'm surprised that more people aren't affected and haven't kicked up a fuss. If that's what happened then it's really annoying and surely they should have warned those affected?

 

[ClubMan]

It's an easy job to reroute this to a new timer, but you would need to be confident and competent to work on the fuse board.

I presume that means acquiring the sort of timer in the your earlier photos and wiring that back in as it used to be before the smart meter installation?

 

[S class]

You would need a set up like this at your fuse board.

 

[S class]

If it's an MCB (circuit breaker) board with some spare space you can click in the time switch and do the wiring as in the picture.

You just need to feed the time switch from an MCB and neutral.
Loop the live feed to the time switch, to the common switch contact at the bottom of the time switch. Then wire the normally open contact to the contactor coil. Then connect the other side of the contactor coil to neutral.

 

[CharlieMac]

But then again they do charge up but they're off at the moment until I figure out if they're charging during the day (which I obviously don't want) or at night.

They probably charge up now whenever you switch them on, no matter what time of the day, I'm guessing?