balders93
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Because they distribute a minimum of 85% of income as dividends, which is taxed at the relevant rate for the investors.
Sinn Fein - Eviction Ban to July 2026
- Thread starter Greenbook
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You can be forgiven for being confused, even our TD's dont understand them lol
Now you can appreciate what a train wreck the whole situation the government has made out of it..
Minister Browne was in the Housing Committee yesterday. It wasn't a discussion of the PRS, but the eviction ban to July 2026 came up. The Irish examiner article is here
Two quotes from James Browne
"Browne also repeatedly rejected a return to a blanket no-fault eviction ban being introduced, saying it would “kill supply”."
“Nobody is going to deliver additional properties into this State where there’s an eviction ban in place,” Mr Browne said."
Thus just shows the lack of joined up thinking here. If you are a small landlord, you'll be under a 6 year no-fault eviction ban after March. If you are a large landlord, it'll be a permanent no-fault eviction ban. Both of those are much more extensive than SF's just til July one. Yet apparently the government eviction bans won't reduce supply. In fact, supply will increase - that's the purpose of the new rules.
You can all them 'TMDs' (tenancies of minimum duration) or life-long tenancies or whatever you want, but the new rules are, in reality, eviction bans.
Two quotes from James Browne
"Browne also repeatedly rejected a return to a blanket no-fault eviction ban being introduced, saying it would “kill supply”."
“Nobody is going to deliver additional properties into this State where there’s an eviction ban in place,” Mr Browne said."
Thus just shows the lack of joined up thinking here. If you are a small landlord, you'll be under a 6 year no-fault eviction ban after March. If you are a large landlord, it'll be a permanent no-fault eviction ban. Both of those are much more extensive than SF's just til July one. Yet apparently the government eviction bans won't reduce supply. In fact, supply will increase - that's the purpose of the new rules.
You can all them 'TMDs' (tenancies of minimum duration) or life-long tenancies or whatever you want, but the new rules are, in reality, eviction bans.
Correct, but the vast majority of the investors are based outside of Ireland, meaning the Irish government get very little tax income from this.
Which means that the REIT did its job and created an in-flow of capital to build housing. That's the big picture. We need far more of them.
Increase affordable supply?….you mean lower unit prices?….you know what suppliers (in this case property developers) do when confronted with lower prices right? ….they decrease supply….again I don’t think you operate in the real world
But wouldn't private landlords also if we were given the same tax treatment?
Private landlords in Ireland are paying up to 55% while the REIT investors can pay 0% in some jurisdictions (e.g. investors in IRES REIT via a UK ISA pay have no tax at all applied either within the REIT structure or after the dividend has been received by them personally)
No, we're talking about billions of investment in a low return sector.
When politicians make blatant mistakes on the interpretation of the regulations, I always wonder if they are confused or want to confuse listeners about what should be their specialist subject. Here, the benefits of the institutional investors are put forward compared to small/smallish LLs. But are they not the same ones that SF and others call inappropriately vulture funds? A couple of years ago, stamp duties needed to be put on institutional LLs, now they need to be attracted... I think any one could be confused.
Even with the REIT structure and chiefly because of government meddling….IRES has turned out to be a bust for any investors who got involved and held throughout the period of its existence.
They sell apartments - chiefly because their valuation is screaming at the management and board that they should actually sell everything and return the capital to shareholders (which is to say IRES stock trades below its NAV) which broadly speaking is a red card in REIT land and you should come off the pitch.
Your example of a UK ISA holding IRES tax-free….i mean you realize an Irish PRSA can hold IRES tax free too?
The REIT structure exists here and is common across the globe because property has such fundamentally low returns that unlike say a publicly listed software company, property returns cannot survive passing through two layers of taxation at the corporate level and then at the individual level and be viable.
So if you want public equity (international or domestic) coming into your property market it needs to be in a REIT wrapper. No conspiracy, no sweetheart deals.....the failure of IRES and the other Irish REITS (Green & Hibernia that are now gone) is really an indictment of the policy environment here......they could and have should been a motorway for international capital flows into net new developments in the State (a REIT that trades above NAV issues new shares to new investors to invest in new projects and grow the portfolio).
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Yes, the Government is doing all it can to make it hard to be a landlord. The fact that Bond Yields have increased means that they are attracting more of the international capital that was going into property.
Yes, I realise that but 1) an ISA can be accessed anytime, but a PRSA needs to be held to a certain age. 2) PRSA is taxed when taken out. An ISA is not subject to personal tax on redemption from the wrapper.
So where are the billions that you mentioned going to come from?
This is my point to Purple , they are also leaving.
They aren't coming; we've screwed things up because of a left wing opposition to anyone making a profit.
I agree with you.
IRES REIT's all time low was about 85c. It is currently trading at 92c despite the new rules coming in for, apparently, the benefit of such entities
When it makes more financial sense for a REIT to go to the hassle of selling off individual apartments rather than letting them out (it's actual business), it just shows how completely messed up the whole PRS is
When it makes more financial sense for a REIT to go to the hassle of selling off individual apartments rather than letting them out (it's actual business), it just shows how completely messed up the whole PRS is
Your down in the weeds of other countries personal taxation regimes.....yes very jealous of the ISA wrapper but you know take it up with your local TD why Irish folks dont have something similiar.....as regards trying to get diverse funding sources for domestic Irish property development the REIT structure with its tax profile was/is the correct structure, indeed its the only public equity structure that works for international public equity capital flows.
The government's aim at the time was to build a property development investment stool that had at least four legs - public equity, private equity, Government funding & bank funding.
It shouldn't be lost on any taxpayer that the more the government has meddled in the sector (RPZ etc.) -
> public equity has headed for the exits (REITs)
> private equity has ran for the hills (PRS) and
> bank funding is and will remain de minimis as long as bank regulations (Basel III) are in place
> the only thing expanding and growing is Government funding (AHBs, LDA, HFC, Crio Cónaithe, plus HTB, FHS schemes).
So you know folks can beat up on IRES or Blackstone all you want.....the houses have to come from somewhere.....and somebody needs to provide the equity to build em......and really as you can see above the only leg left on the stool to fill the void is the Government.
And so you Irish taxpayers are funding all this stuff!!!!!....the country went bust in 2008 because the State's viability became intertwined with its domestic property sector (& banks).....we are now doing the reverse......the domestic residential property sectors annual output and viability has become intertwined and deeply dependent on State funding to be sustained.
Not a good place to be!
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Apologies this is a bit off topic but curious about this: if the Dail adjourns from tomorrow until 13Jan, does everything stop completely or does work on different bills continue within the various department? For instance will there be no sight of this eviction bill from EOB until after 13Jan ?
And what about the main tenancy bill? If it’s not published until mid Jan and has to go through several stages, there’s not a lot of time until it becomes law on 01Mar. Is that normally how it works with something that’s controversial?
And what about the main tenancy bill? If it’s not published until mid Jan and has to go through several stages, there’s not a lot of time until it becomes law on 01Mar. Is that normally how it works with something that’s controversial?
Surely sf could put it into action in Northern Ireland where they are in government and see how it works. Then they'd be coming from a position of experience.
Seems they haven't tried rent controls in Northern Ireland either. Belfast rents are up 27% since 2023
As for housing completions, the Republic are boom time on completions if comparing to Northern Ireland - just 6,000 last year and 5400 in 2023 (lowest since 1959)
Having relatives living in NI, and they'd be of the nationalist colour, they abhor sf and how bad they are in stormont even with the low level power they have.
As for electricity prices. Those in Northern Ireland just wish they could pay the "high rates" of the republic. Best discounted rate they could get was over 30p
Seems they haven't tried rent controls in Northern Ireland either. Belfast rents are up 27% since 2023
As for housing completions, the Republic are boom time on completions if comparing to Northern Ireland - just 6,000 last year and 5400 in 2023 (lowest since 1959)
Having relatives living in NI, and they'd be of the nationalist colour, they abhor sf and how bad they are in stormont even with the low level power they have.
As for electricity prices. Those in Northern Ireland just wish they could pay the "high rates" of the republic. Best discounted rate they could get was over 30p
@bipped we won't see the SF Eviction Bill discussed again until after 13 January I'd image. Here is the Bill itself
Far more astonishing is that the Heads of the Bill with the new rules is not publicly available yet. More astonishingly, they'll have 7 Dail weeks (of three days each) to get this through between 13 January and 1 March. This is the most profound change to the PRS in a generation. It is also highly complex and it'll be rushed through in seven weeks at the most. Also, astonishingly, they've been working on this since March if not before that.
Far more astonishing is that the Heads of the Bill with the new rules is not publicly available yet. More astonishingly, they'll have 7 Dail weeks (of three days each) to get this through between 13 January and 1 March. This is the most profound change to the PRS in a generation. It is also highly complex and it'll be rushed through in seven weeks at the most. Also, astonishingly, they've been working on this since March if not before that.
Oireachtas Committees will still be meeting
Here's the schedule for next week:- https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/committees/schedule/