Sinn Fein - Eviction Ban to July 2026

[Purple]

That is a huge comfort - I will be criminally prosecuted with guards and the Director of Public Prosecutions involved, but the jury might not find me guilty. Rectification might reduce the sentence but it doesn't mean that I will be found not guilty.

Don't forget your legal fees.

 

[Greenbook]

Don't forget your legal fees.

Yes, and the stress of the whole thing. Plus having to tell an employer that you need time off to defend yourself in a criminal prosecution. Your friends and family will find out. A nightmare and it would be over something which, in reality, is not important at all ie. an incorrectly filled in form. You are a good landlord who has treated your tenants properly, but you now have a criminal record over some technical breach of the legislation.

 

[Purple]

Yes, and the stress of the whole thing. Plus having to tell an employer that you need time off to defend yourself in a criminal prosecution. Your friends and family will find out. A nightmare and it would be over something which, in reality, is not important at all ie. an incorrectly filled in form. You are a good landlord who has treated your tenants properly, but you now have a criminal record over some technical breach of the legislation.

Exactly. Why on earth would someone take on that risk in order to run a loss making business.

 

[Sister Sara]

furniture, white goods, repairs, maintenance, repainting,

How frequent? Decent couch, kitchen table and chairs, wardrobes you'd expect minimum of 10yrs lifespan.
Washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer, microwave, even a good kettle will last a minimum of 10yrs. And if you pay for any repairs needed they will last longer.
Kitchens, bathrooms, floors - 10yrs, minimum.
New doors and windows - minimum 20yrs.

€5000 a year would more than suffice for all this including agents fee, accountancy fees etc.

€100pw.

mortgage

How much do you charge your tenants to pay for your mortgage?
And when the mortgage is paid off, would you drop the price of the rental? As I know the last time I was in a tenancy 2006-2012, the landlord has paid down the mortgage but the rent is twice the price now as it was then.

I will be criminally prosecuted with guards and the Director of Public Prosecutions involved,

I think you are exaggerating somewhat or fearful of something that isnt an issue. Law enforcement of administrative mistakes doesnt work like that in this country. You will always have ample opportunity to rectify any errors, or misinterpretations you made. Only if it can be demonstrated that you knowingly and willfully failed to comply with a legal requirement (which will involve repeated requests to comply) would you face the prospect of a prosecution.

 

[Greenbook]

How frequent? Decent couch, kitchen table and chairs, wardrobes you'd expect minimum of 10yrs lifespan.

Not a hope! As an experienced landlord, if you want to offer a decent property to a tenant as I have always wanted to do, it is five years max. Mattresses need to be changed more frequently. Washingmachines and dryers need to be replaced every couple of years.

I also forgot to mention management fees on apartment blocks - generally around 1,500 per annum.

Yes, a bathroom and kitchen will last 10 years, but even a basic IKEA kitchen will cost at least 5k for the kitchen itself, installation and dumping of the old kitchen. The white goods may need to be replaced as well. I know that because I got a quote a while back on a kitchen I had been planning on replacing.

When you buy a property you factor in that the rent should pay the mortgage, costs etc. otherwise you don't buy. This is the same as any business. If I buy a pub, I will make sure that what I charge the customers will pay my mortgage, costs, capital improvements and leave me with a profit. Otherwise I will not buy that pub. When the mortgage is paid off, does the publican drop his prices? That is how any business works. Providing housing though is social and should be done, as you say, at the landlord's expense.

 

[Greenbook]

I think you are exaggerating somewhat or fearful of something that isnt an issue. Law enforcement of administrative mistakes doesnt work like that in this country. You will always have ample opportunity to rectify any errors, or misinterpretations you made.

You have great faith in the fairness of the RTB

 

[Sister Sara]

Mattresses need to be changed more frequently. Washingmachines and dryers need to be replaced every couple of years.

Granted, new mattresses at the start of every new tenancy is good practice, but washing machines and dryers etc do not have to be replaced every couple of years!

I'm 25yrs in property of my own. I'm three years into washing machine no.3. My microwave is donkeys year old. My fridgefreezer 8/9yrs old.

kitchen will last 10 years, but even a basic IKEA kitchen will cost at least 5k for the kitchen itself, installation and dumping of the old kitchen.

So thats about €10pw expense for kitchens. Ditto bathrooms, floors. Doors and windows, 20yrs. Painting and decorating 5-10yrs.

You have great faith in the fairness of the RTB

Nothing to do with RTB, all to do with courts. No court is going to entertain a criminal prosecution from a State body, with the financial resources at its disposal, against an individual citizen for not signing a form as required without the State authority showing they tried everything reasonable to bring the alleged offender into compliance. Having worked in the area of enforcement for a State body I know first hand that every reasonable effort will have been made by the prosecuting authority to bring you into compliance for an administrative requirement. Without it the courts will throw out the prosecution.

 

[Sister Sara]

When you buy a property you factor in that the rent should pay the mortgage, costs etc. otherwise you don't buy.

This I think is a significant part of the problem with the housing market. Landlords are competing against prospective owner-occupiers for property, pushing up prices and ultimately turning prospective owner-occupiers into tenants, who in turn end up paying the mortgage and costs via the rent.

Wouldn't it be better all round if such landlords exited the housing market? This would not solve the housing crisis but it at least relieve one choking-point.

If even half of the properties held by private landlords were put up for sale on open market, some 165,000 properties would become available for prospective buyers. Nearly 3 yrs supply in market where supply is desperately trying to meet demand. Mortgage lending books could prevent a sharp price correction, if there were to be one.

 

[Greenbook]

Granted, new mattresses at the start of every new tenancy is good practice, but washing machines and dryers etc do not have to be replaced every couple of years. I'm 25yrs in property of my own. I'm three years into washing machine no.3. My microwave is donkeys year old. My fridgefreezer 8/9yrs old.

I'm delighted for you. But tenants are hard on washingmachines etc. They don't last long. There is a lot more maintaining and repairing in a rental property than in a person's own home.

My point is that you do need to be putting away money every month so that you can afford to pay for the capital expenditure when it needs to be done. Many people seem to believe that if I am renting out a property for 1,500 per month, I put all of that into my back pocket and off I go. I can take at least 300 off per month for revenue expenses and putting money aside towards the capital end, so for tax purposes I am taxed on 1,350 and effectively I am left with about 500 per month. I am not even taking into account the mortgage here.

But I forgot, landlords are social housing providers and should not make any profit at all. We should, just like the local authorities, subsidise our tenants.

No court is going to entertain a criminal prosecution from a State body, with the financial resources at its disposal, against an individual citizen for not signing a form as required without the State authority showing they tried everything reasonable to bring the alleged offender into compliance. Having worked in the area of enforcement for a State body I know first hand that every reasonable effort will have been made by the prosecuting authority to bring you into compliance for an administrative requirement. Without it the courts will throw out the prosecution.

That will be of great comfort to me when I am facing criminal prosecution - everyone, the RTB, the Guards and the director of public prosecutions, will bend over backwards to help me even though I have broken the law. Sorry, but I am just unwilling to take a chance on that.
The risk of criminal prosecution for some slip up in a form is just a risk that I am not willing to take.

Anyway, I have no intention of continuing any further with this. You, like the Department of Housing, are convinced that we are evil people for seeking to make a profit from running a business and providing a necessary service. You and the Department of Housing have won the argument. Rules are being imposed which make it impossible to stay in business and landlords are selling up.

 

[Sister Sara]

But tenants are hard on washingmachines etc. They don't last long. There is a lot more maintaining and repairing in a rental property than in a person's own home.

There simply is not. "Tenants are hard on washing machines"? Are you sure you are a landlord??

I've been a tenant in total for 10yrs and 3 landlords. What impressed me most about all three landlords is that I barely saw them from end of year to the next, maybe once a year. These were good landlords.

Furniture was comfortable, white goods always worked. On one occasion the petrol mower broke down and I took it to repairs, €50-60, I think' and landlord reimbursed me after I gave him the receipt (can he claim VAT off that?...nevermind.)

These days I'm a tenant in my own house.

The risk of criminal prosecution for some slip up in a form is just a risk that I am not willing to take.

You should get professional advice on this, but I can assure you there is no criminal conviction looming in the background for not filling a form.

But I forgot, landlords are social housing providers and should not make any profit at all. We should, just like the local authorities, subsidise our tenants.

I never said you should not make a profit. There is a need for landlords. There is also a need to allow earning couples own their own homes, rather than living with mams and dads, delaying families etc, a significant portion of tenants are earners who would readily swap their status as tenants to owner-occupiers.

You, like the Department of Housing, are convinced that we are evil people for seeking to make a profit from running a business and providing a necessary service.

Please, stop with 'evil' dramatics. You are not providing a 'necessary service' that is not already in place via working people earnings and savings, mortgage lenders, and developers.
This is the point you are not grasping. There is a housing crisis to provide adequate affordable homes for the current and next generation.
This may have immense social consequence if not addressed far beyond your own individual circumstances.

Most landlords, I assume, are owner-occupiers of their own homes. So they really do not need to have additional properties, they already have a roof over their heads.

landlords are selling up

Probably best, considering. Best of luck for the future.

 

[Greenbook]

@Sister Sara

I give up at this stage

I am being accused of lying. I do have to replace furniture and white goods very often. Tenants don't have to buy them or replace them, so they don't look after them as well as owner occupiers do. If you must pay for something yourself and replace it yourself you will look after it. The same goes for maintenance on the property. I know what my costs are. I keep track of them to make sure that I pay the correct amount of tax. However, per your posts I'm lying about my costs. The rental business is not as vastly profitable as you imagine.

I'm not providing a necessary service - I am a parasite. People do need to and want to rent for all the reasons I have explained previously. A 22 year old from Cork who finished university there and gets a traineeship as an accountant in Dublin in your world would have a choice of buying a house or staying in a hotel. Renting a property is not a necessary service to him?

You are a civil servant you say and this is the attitude that permeates the policy makers in the Department of Housing. Criminal prosecution because we can't be trusted, new rules which mean the business isn't viable because it is not a necessary service and we are exploiting people.

I'm not going to reply anymore to your posts. It's like bagging my head against a brick wall. You do illustrate, however, the official government attitude towards us and why continuing in the business will not end well for us. It also demonstrates that trying to explain where we are coming from is useless and just falls on deaf ears.

 

[Sister Sara]

I am being accused of lying.

I never accused you of lying. That in itself is a lie.

Tenants don't have to buy them or replace them, so they don't look after them as well as owner occupiers do

As explained, I've been a tenant in rental and remain a tenant in my own property. I treated the provisions of the rental housing in the same manner as I treat my own property. Afterall, it is me that has to live and utilise the washing machines, tumble dryers etc . As you said,

if you want to offer a decent property to a tenant as I have always wanted to do

then changing the white goods every couple of years does not sound credible to me if you are interested in renting to a decent tenant?

The rental business is not as vastly profitable as you imagine.

I never suggested it was. I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole. It is part of the domestic property market in this country - dysfunctional and failing.

People do need to and want to rent for all the reasons I have explained previously. A 22 year old from Cork who finished university there and gets a traineeship as an accountant in Dublin in your world would have a choice of buying a house or staying in a hotel. Renting a property is not a necessary service to him?

Abosultely it is and I have said repeatedly that rental accommodation is needed. You clearly have not being reading my posts hence the 'evil' tropes.

My point is, that at this time there is insufficient property available for the population at large. This affects, in my opinion, a whole cohort of people. In my opinion, via working people who earn and mortgage loan books, there is an opportunity to release prospective owner-occupiers from their tenancy status.

I would suggest one scheme where landlords, perhaps like yourself, and their tenants are afforded an opportunity to engage in property transfer.
- Tenants given the opportunity to buy out their landlords. No deposit, just a straight swap.

Criminal prosecution because we can't be trusted, new rules which mean the business isn't viable because it is not a necessary service and we are exploiting people.

I think you are exaggerating so best leave it here.

I'm not going to reply anymore to your posts.

Ok, no problem. I'm sorry we cannot find common ground. Trust me, nothing personal, just a discussion to highlight issues and perhaps propose solutions. Its fine if we do not agree, but please do not accuse me of things I never said nor try to represent my views other than from what I have actually written here, and not what you perceive I have said.

Take care.

 

[bipped]

Tenants given the opportunity to buy out their landlords. No deposit, just a straight swap.

How would that work?

 

[lff12]

Frequent costs - mortgage, insurance, furniture, white goods, repairs, maintenance, repainting, accounting and tax, agents fees . Long term costs - new kitchens, bathrooms, floors, replacement front doors, new windows. These are just the things I can quickly think of which I have incurred this year (frequent costs). There are probably more if I looked at my records. The long term cost are items I spent money on in the past couple of years or, if I had been staying, would do so over the next couple. If you know a way of renting out a property without incurring any costs at all, I would be delighted to know.

As someone who rented for most of 25 years, the bulk of my tenancies have only had very minor repairs, and any appliances replaced were always bottom of the barrel often no-name branded appliances that only exist in the world of landlords, aside from one gas boiler replacement, probably covered by the fact that when I had it serviced after my first year in the place, the gas guy said upfront that it was in extremely poor condition and had probably never had a service in 16 years. And even then such costs can be written off against tax. And that's in cases where the landlord didn't simply arrive and jerry fit a short term fix himself.

 

[lff12]

My point is, that at this time there is insufficient property available for the population at large. This affects, in my opinion, a whole cohort of people. In my opinion, via working people who earn and mortgage loan books, there is an opportunity to release prospective owner-occupiers from their tenancy status.

While I would love to say I'd agree with this point, I was one of very many people shut entirely out of home ownership despite earning decent income, around 2010-2017, for the "crime" of being a self employed contractor whom for most of that period lenders wouldn't touch with a bargepole and Central Bank shut out further by an unnecessary insistence on FTBs needing 20% deposits, something no voter voted for.

The census has shown a very considerable population increase over the past 13 or so years which most definitely requires significant increases in population, at a time when households are getting smaller & at the same time there's considerable stigma attached to apartment living. HNDA reports are rightly criticised for underestimating "real" housing demand. In particular according to ESRI Integration reports it would suggest that around 70% of migrants are dependent on the PRS. Its an underdiscussed point but while Irish people might have the option of staying with family or friends, migrants really only have the PRS and many do not qualify for any schemes without taking Irish citizenship which takes years or living in the same area for 5 years.

There is certainly a good place for landlord to tenant sales but having been stung in one of these (it transpired that the apartment had no proper PP and was supposed to be combined with the adjoining apartment in one bigger home) they come at considerable risks to the tenant as they may be under pressure to buy as an alternative to being presented with an eviction order as the landlord is clearly interested in exiting.

And that assumes that people in that scenario can buy - many tenants are tenants not because they cannot find something to buy but because they are self employed, don't have job stability, cannot save enough for a deposit or don't earn enough to qualify for a mortgage. That's why cost rental is considered to be an important tool in the policy strategy right now, it needs to be better targeted at tenants who can pay a slightly discounted market mortgage but are unlikely to ever be in a position to buy by themselves.

 

[lff12]

How would that work?

Its not a straight swap. I've been there, since many landlords work through or with agents they can ask the agent to ask the tenant would they be interested in buying. Then the agent suggests a price and they can agree - or not.
It might be the case that the landlord wishes to sell and in that case they can go through whatever the current legal system is - either go through eviction, sell with tenant-in-situ (which is far more common than you realise), or perhaps the tenant (as happened in my case) realises they are financially in a good position to buy and leaves of their own accord.

This assumes of course that what you are renting to the tenant is legally constituted to be a house or an apartment - it will not work with pre-63s, and also not in cases like mine where a 3 bed mews was hastily redesigned by the builders to create 2 apartments instead of one house without PP.