Public service reform

Firefly

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3,431
Today’s actions of the TUI and ASTI unions prove my point entirely.
They’re demanding, actually commanding because they will get it, pay parity between junior and senior teachers, which is an absurdity.

IMO the only reason they are demanding this is that they know they cannot get an increase themselves until this gap is closed! They're not doing it for the new teachers, who let's not forget, they were happy to throw under the bus..
 

Purple

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13,199
I support the actions of the TUI and ASTI. They have been campaigning for years for equality. Strike action is the only action they have left. Too much talk made them walk.

"Jeopardsing children's education" - Not a bit of it. These are the same children striking for a cleaner planet.

"Discommoding parents" - Yes, somebody is always discommoded during any kind of strike.

"Selfish, avaricious reasons" - No - It's about equality.
Strikes are always about more money. Nothing else.
My children didn't go on the climate action "strike" which wasn't really a strike as the kids aren't employed by the school and they were campaigning for the greater good, not something that you could accuse the teachers of doing.
 

Leper

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1,797
You're right Purple, I don't know of any strike that wasn't about money. In this instant equal pay is the issue.

and the best one yet that the retired teachers should take a cut in their pension to pay what's owed. It's nearly enough to send me to Boards.ie :oops:
 

Leo

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14,382
Leo, do me a favour an show this post to your family members and see if they agree or disagree with it. If they disagree feel free to inform me. However, I am confident that they will endorse my post.

As I said, I've spoken to them about this before, they have told me quite a different story to what you are saying here. They can if they choose work additional hours, but they get enhanced pay and time in lieu. Such hours don't suit one who has three kids, she works the regular nights one week, days the next pattern Purple outlined.
 

Sunny

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4,362
It's pretty obvious what is needed here. We need another round of benchmarking.... We should get a commission set up. Maybe get Bertie and Charlie back doing some public service....
 

Leper

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1,797
As I said, I've. spoken to them about this before, they have told me quite a different story to what you are saying here. They can if they choose work additional hours, but they get enhanced pay and time in lieu. Such hours don't suit one who has three kids, she works the regular nights one week, days the next pattern Purple outlined.

All I ask you to do is to inform us of the differences from my posts. What I posted is the full truth. That's not too difficult, is it?
 

Deiseblue

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827
You're right Purple, I don't know of any strike that wasn't about money. In this instant equal pay is the issue.

and the best one yet that the retired teachers should take a cut in their pension to pay what's owed. It's nearly enough to send me to Boards.ie :oops:
It simply beggars belief that a teacher employed on the 31st January 2012 earns 14% initially and 10% more over 10 years than a teacher employed on the 1st February 2012 and it should be noted that both teacher unions were informed that if they had not agreed to the amended pay scales that they would be introduced under FEMPI , they were also assured that this would be temporary until the economy improved-well it's going gangbusters according to the Government so it's time to pony up.
It's brilliant to see so many ASTI teachers standing in solidarity with TUI members .
Great timing as well just before the election.
 

Sophrosyne

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1,462
Agency nursing pensions is a red herring.

What is happening now is firefighting at its very worst and costing a fortune.

The HSE has a problem in recruitment and retention, leading to shortfalls in medical care, due to global competition for medical staff.

Why would they stay here to be subjected to constant criticism of self-appointed pseudo medical or healthcare experts, when they can go elsewhere and command better pay and working conditions and where their contribution to national healthcare is valued?

Indiscriminate criticisms solve nothing and would not be given the time of day by anyone in a decision-making capacity.

To give Purple (sometimes) and cremeeg their due, systemic problems are usually a managerial failure. I would add to this in the case of the public service, counterproductive political interference.

From my own experience of working in large organizations, albeit in the private sector, stick a plaster on it rather than solve it can often be the managerial preference and they would dare anyone to disagree. This is fine as an expedient but underlying problems still obtain and eventually snowball.

However, at least we did not have to suffer the problem of having to comply with the wishes of TDs and ministers trying to make a name for themselves, dictating operational policy and methodology and pulling us in all directions to meet their diverse political and often unrealistic goals.

I think any problem-solving has to start with realistic expectations of our various public services given, exchequer constraints and strangely I don’t think these decisions should necessarily be political. But rather when these decisions have been made by citizen consensus, then all politicians of whatever hue have to row in.
 

Purple

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Agency nursing pensions is a red herring.
No it isn't. Pensions are a massive cost.
The HSE has a problem in recruitment and retention, leading to shortfalls in medical care, due to global competition for medical staff.

Why would they stay here to be subjected to constant criticism of self-appointed pseudo medical or healthcare experts, when they can go elsewhere and command better pay and working conditions and where their contribution to national healthcare is valued?
They leave, mostly, because of the stress caused by the broken system they work within. The pay levels here are very competitive internationally. It's the other bits like training and promotion that are sub-par.
If money was the solution we'd have the best healthcare system in the world.
From my own experience of working in large organizations, albeit in the private sector, stick a plaster on it rather than solve it can often be the managerial preference and they would dare anyone to disagree. This is fine as an expedient but underlying problems still obtain and eventually snowball.
True but those organisations aren't delivering health and other critical services.
However, at least we did not have to suffer the problem of having to comply with the wishes of TDs and ministers trying to make a name for themselves, dictating operational policy and methodology and pulling us in all directions to meet their diverse political and often unrealistic goals.

I think any problem-solving has to start with realistic expectations of our various public services given, exchequer constraints and strangely I don’t think these decisions should necessarily be political. But rather when these decisions have been made by citizen consensus, then all politicians of whatever hue have to row in.
I think that's a very important point and central to the discussion. A hospital on every corner, or even every county, isn't a realistic policy expectation. The current government's Sláintecare policy is a big step in the right direction. Long term planning at a political level should be done through the committee system. That applies to many areas, not just health.
 

Sophrosyne

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1,462
Agency nursing is a result of firefighting. Pension savings as a result of use of agency nursing is a pseudo argument because they should not be needed in the first place; certainly not to the extent that they are.

I never claimed that pay was the only reason why medical staff emigrate. Whether the pay here is internationally competitive is unproven.

The organization I worked for was a global leader. Whether we delivered critical services or otherwise is irrelevant. Ours took measures against the patch-it-up and other detrimental mentalities of certain managers. Problem-solving or lack of it affects any organization.

Nor did I suggest that problem solving should be confined to health.

As a nation we are not particularly stupid, nor are we less inventive than others but we are constrained by provision of services along traditional and political lines that are no longer fit for purpose and are difficult to change. We need to aspire to better.

What I am suggesting is that instead of public services motivated by diverse political aspirations, it could be by citizen aspiration, which would of course have to be realistic. However, I think this is highly achievable.
 
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WolfeTone

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1,084
Ive lost my functionality to give 'Likes' on this forum. Not sure if its a glitch or otherwise.
So notional 'Likes' to @Leper and @Deiseblue and @Sophrosyne articulating intelligent points. Devoid of the hyperbolic demagoguery deriving from others in clear display of not understanding the workings of public services.
 

WolfeTone

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1,084
Strikes are always about more money. Nothing else.

Pay and conditions.
Strikes during the War of Independence were primarily in support of the release of political prisoners.
The Dunnes Stores Anti-Apartheid strike had nothing to do with pay.
And there are other examples of workers striking just have their union recognized by their employer as their chosen representative.
In 25yrs I have been on strike for 1.5 days. One full day to have my union represent me when my terms were altered without negotiation. The half day was for better pay (I think? - I was so long ago I forget).
 

Leo

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14,382
All I ask you to do is to inform us of the differences from my posts. What I posted is the full truth. That's not too difficult, is it?

I did, but you don't seem to like it. My wife is on a similar 39 hour contract (many of her colleagues stuck with the 37.5 hour week as I'm sure you know the increase to 39 couldn't be enforced across the board - leading to further complexities and costs in rostering and payroll), any time worked over 39 hours earns tie in lieu, and usually premium payments.

If what you are claiming is true across the board, why do you think the unions are quite happy with the situation?
 

Leper

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1,797
I did, but you don't seem to like it. My wife is on a similar 39 hour contract (many of her colleagues stuck with the 37.5 hour week as I'm sure you know the increase to 39 couldn't be enforced across the board - leading to further complexities and costs in rostering and payroll), any time worked over 39 hours earns tie in lieu, and usually premium payments.

If what you are claiming is true across the board, why do you think the unions are quite happy with the situation?

1. I don't know of any hospital which did not implement the increase from 37.5 to 39 hours for nurses on a weekly contract. I know the unions objected to the increase, but austerity measures took over and the nurses took it on the chin like the rest of the Public/Civil Service. The hourly rate decreased also which affected other payments as well as the basic pay. Those who opted to work for 37.5 hours per week were paid for 37.5 hours only (at the reduced hourly rate) and took on a decrease in wages. If your wife opts to work overtime they (and everybody else who opted for 37.5 hours weekly) will have to work the first 1.5 hours @ single time before overtime rates kick in.

2. If you read my post again you'll see I'm referring to fulltime nurses working a full roster of night duty. If there is any sentence, phrase or word in my post that's untrue please feel free to advise. With respect I think your wife and yourself are sharing the same confusion.

3. The nursing unions are not happy with the situation; I don't know how you arrived at the opposite conclusion.
 

Leo

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1. I don't know of any hospital which did not implement the increase from 37.5 to 39 hours for nurses on a weekly contract.

They all implemented it, but every existing staff member was allowed to choose to remain on 37.5 hours if they wished. That was included in the INMO guidance of the time, and is still covered in their official guidance on accrual of annual leave. Have your source with membership log in to their portal and you can review their guidance on the T&Cs of current contracts.

The nursing unions are not happy with the situation; I don't know how you arrived at the opposite conclusion.

They have released hundreds of press releases over the past few years on their causes and all active disputes across the health service, if what you claim is indeed systematic, I'd have thought they might even mention it once?
 

Leper

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1,797
They all implemented it, but every existing staff member was allowed to choose to remain on 37.5 hours if they wished. That was included in the INMO guidance of the time, and is still covered in their official guidance on accrual of annual leave. Have your source with membership log in to their portal and you can review their guidance on the T&Cs of current contracts.



They have released hundreds of press releases over the past few years on their causes and all active disputes across the health service, if what you claim is indeed systematic, I'd have thought they might even mention it once?

1. You're right Leo. All the hospitals implemented the increase in hours. Nurses were given the option of working 37.5 or 39 hours. Many nurses didn't work these hours anyway and they also could hold onto their preferred hours @ the low rate of pay. I have no argument on this point.

2. Don't worry the nursing unions (there's more than one) will fall into the situation of the secondary teachers. They are keeping their powder dry currently, but there will be union movement to restore full pay and for work of the lesser hours.

3. Are you fully familiar with the fulltime night duty situation that I pointed out?
 

Leo

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2. Don't worry the nursing unions (there's more than one)

I'm well aware, INMO represent the vast majority though.

They are keeping their powder dry currently

So I can only conclude after years of silence they have no issue with a systematic issues like you describe. You may have a different interpretation.

3. Are you fully familiar with the fulltime night duty situation that I pointed out?

I'm not, and I only know a few people working in the hospitals, but they're not familiar with it either.
 

Deiseblue

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827
The various public sector Unions first priority is the restoration of pay , a priority that has paid dividends with hopefully the question of equality of pay being resolved shortly although progress has been made in this area - not enough though.
The question of rowing back on the additional hours sector wide will be very much to the forefront in upcoming negotiations on public sector pay.
 

ATC110

Registered User
Messages
427
I support the actions of the TUI and ASTI. They have been campaigning for years for equality. Strike action is the only action they have left. Too much talk made them walk.

"Jeopardsing children's education" - Not a bit of it. These are the same children striking for a cleaner planet.

"Discommoding parents" - Yes, somebody is always discommoded during any kind of strike.

"Selfish, avaricious reasons" - No - It's about equality.

On reflection childrens' education isn't necessarily jeopardised by a strike. Many are capable of self-guided study instead of the potluck of getting a good or bad teacher, the latter possibly on the same pay scales or even higher than the former; And untouchable.

The sheer arrogance and entitlement of a mentality that some privileged and cosseted sector can discommode the very people who generate the taxes to pay their inflated pay and conditions.

Already addressed equality - let the overpaid senior teachers lower their wages in line with the already generously paid junior teachers.

This is wrestling with a pig territory.
 
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