Public service reform

Purple

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Do you know that agency nursing costs the exchequer more than public sector nursing equivalents?
No they don't. The State doesn't have to fund the pension of the agency nurse etc. The total cost of an agency is far lower.
 

Purple

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This at a time when the deficit in the DB pension was running at 1.6 billion euro ( thankfully the deficit has been reduced to approx 400 million ) , I believe that the Union did an extremely good job in negotiating the new hybrid scheme , a scheme apparently that has proved attractive to other companies.
Funded by bailout money if I remember correctly.
The bank has to make massive profits to fund that DB pension scheme. I hope Leper considers that when he is thinking about how the banks "robbed" him when he had a mortgage.
Your pension is paid for my mortgage holders, small businesses and large businesses.
I don't begrudge you any of it; you took the job knowing that a fantastic pension was part of the package. State employees do the same. The package (pay and pension) for a average Garda is worth over €100,000 a year. The package for the average nurse is worth over €70,000 a year. I've no problem with what they earn. I do have a problem when their Union representatives tell lies about it.
My issue with the State sector is waste and inefficiency, not pay and pensions.
I completely agree that there is waste and inefficiency in the private sector but for the most part they are not providing essential public services.
 

Leper

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No they don't. The State doesn't have to fund the pension of the agency nurse etc. The total cost of an agency is far lower.

The cost per hour of an agency nurse is far higher than the rate paid to a staff nurse. Yes the agency pays for the agency nurse's holidays (inbuilt+) into the much higher hourly rate charged to the hospital. The agency doesn't pay the agency nurse his/her pension, the state does. Now an agency nurse arrives for say an evening's work or for night duty having worked earlier in another hospital; the increased chances of cross contamination come into play. What I am saying is usually the rule not the exception.
 

Purple

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The cost per hour of an agency nurse is far higher than the rate paid to a staff nurse. Yes the agency pays for the agency nurse's holidays (inbuilt+) into the much higher hourly rate charged to the hospital. The agency doesn't pay the agency nurse his/her pension, the state does.
The State does not pay the agency Nurse the same pension that it pays to a staff Nurse.
Now an agency nurse arrives for say an evening's work or for night duty having worked earlier in another hospital; the increased chances of cross contamination come into play. What I am saying is usually the rule not the exception.
The working time act should stop that happening.
 

Purple

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The important thing is not how much State employees get paid but rather the efficiency of the structures they work within.
Waste is structural.
 

Leper

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The important thing is not how much State employees get paid but rather the efficiency of the structures they work within.
Waste is structural.

I don't know what you mean by "Waste is structural."

The State does not pay the agency Nurse the same pension that it pays to a staff Nurse.

The working time act should stop that happening.

The Agency Nurse (most likely) will have a pension plan of his/her own and perhaps has a pension from the hospital already (Agency Nurses are very often former hospital nurses from the public sector and even work in the former capacity of staff nurse in even the same ward). We're getting involved in semantics here. Very often a retired hospital nurse has a hospital plus a state pension. The nurse is entitled to these in specific circumstances. But, have no doubt about it in the big picture (and the practical picture) Agency nurses cost the tax payer more financially, such is the nature of the work. The chances of Agency nurses bringing infection from another hospital to another cannot be ignored either. If you think I'm talking bunkum, the next time you visit a hospital just look at the amount of hospital staff leaving the building and not using the hand cleansers near the door.

What Purple thinks the Working Time Act should stop and how it actually works are at odds. The nurses are not to blame for this.
 

Purple

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But, have no doubt about it in the big picture (and the practical picture) Agency nurses cost the tax payer more financially, such is the nature of the work.
That is incorrect. The State is paying the agency nurse an hourly rate for the hours they work.
If they employ a staff nurse they will also be funding their pension. That is a massive extra cost (at least 35% on top of their pay) plus their other perks. If the agency nurse has a state pension from another source that is not relevant as there is no additional state pension liability accruing due to their employment as an agency nurse.
 

ATC110

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427
Do you know that agency nursing costs the exchequer more than public sector nursing equivalents?

Absolutely, reform is needed but you are not going about this the right way.

You are making a simplistic comparison based on hourly pay rates. Factor in the superannuation subsidy, 3 months full pay plus 3 months half pay sick leave every five years, compassionate leave, perpetual work to rule, virtual unsackability and general inflexibility then agency nurses are a much more prudent choice.

Absolutely, reform is needed but you are not going about this the right way.

Until a government is prepared to take on the PS unions the above-mentioned untenable situation will remain and service delivery will deteriorate further
 

Purple

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Not much a employer can do public or private if a worker is double jobbing ,I know lots of people who double job ,there main employer has no way of knowing what they spent there time doing once they finish work until the return again, Employer's can only make sure they are not breaking the working time act, Employee's breaking they act doing agency type work are harder to police,
It's a bit different when they are working for the same employer in both jobs. They only have one PPS number. Standardisation of contracts for nurses across all hospitals would save the State tens of millions a year. Of course the Unions won't let that happen. They don't care about waste but that is exactly the sort of process duplication that I am talking about.
 

Purple

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13,102
What Purple thinks the Working Time Act should stop and how it actually works are at odds. The nurses are not to blame for this
No, their employer and their Union are to blame. The nurse who knowingly breaks the working time act by working as a Staff nurse and an agency nurse should be sacked on the spot if caught.
 

Purple

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When Irish Water was set up 4000 Council Employees (calling them workers would be stretching it) who ran the water network from all over the country were moved into Irish water. Simply by centralising the running of the water infrastructure it was realised that . SIPTU used its veto over all government decisions to ensure that the other 2000 were paid for doing nothing. That's 2000 out of 4000.
There are 102,000 people working for the HSE (67,000 direct and 35,000 indirect). How many of them could be got rid of if things were structured properly?
The average pay for a Public Sector employee is €50,500. Including the cost of their pension that figure is around €70,000. Therefore the 2000 slackers in Irish Water cost the State €14 million a year or around a half a billion over their working life.

How much could be saved in the HSE?
If that money was saved;
How many more hospitals could be built?
How many more nurses would be employed?
How many children with special needs could be helped to have a fulfilled life?
How many families could be saved from the tragedy of teenage suicide?
How many drug rehabilitation places could be provided?

Is it still unreasonable to say that the people who resist that change have blood on their hands?
 

josh8267

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95
No, their employer and their Union are to blame. The nurse who knowingly breaks the working time act by working as a Staff nurse and an agency nurse should be sacked on the spot if caught.
There are lots of employers in the private sector not breaking the working time act, but know there employees are , I haven't seen anyone sacked yet in the private sector,
Its a big problem in the private sector from a safety point of view ,Public and other employees are being put in danger all the time,
Employees whose overtime are restricted by the work in time act in there main job's often finish up having to do away more hours to hold there 2nd job ,
 
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josh8267

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95
When Irish Water was set up 4000 Council Employees (calling them workers would be stretching it) who ran the water network from all over the country were moved into Irish water. Simply by centralising the running of the water infrastructure it was realised that . SIPTU used its veto over all government decisions to ensure that the other 2000 were paid for doing nothing. That's 2000 out of 4000.
There are 102,000 people working for the HSE (67,000 direct and 35,000 indirect). How many of them could be got rid of if things were structured properly?
The average pay for a Public Sector employee is €50,500. Including the cost of their pension that figure is around €70,000. Therefore the 2000 slackers in Irish Water cost the State €14 million a year or around a half a billion over their working life.

How much could be saved in the HSE?
If that money was saved;
How many more hospitals could be built?
How many more nurses would be employed?
How many children with special needs could be helped to have a fulfilled life?
How many families could be saved from the tragedy of teenage suicide?
How many drug rehabilitation places could be provided?

Is it still unreasonable to say that the people who resist that change have blood on their hands?
The main parties in Ireland FF?FG/LAB at present are out bidding one another to spend as much money as possible, if the take in one euro in tax they want to spend two,
Might as well see the public service getting it as vested interest in the private sector, so says a retired private sector worker, josh,
 

Leper

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1,772
No, their employer and their Union are to blame. The nurse who knowingly breaks the working time act by working as a Staff nurse and an agency nurse should be sacked on the spot if caught.

Blame the employer, blame the union, blame the nurse. Nurses who work for hospitals and agencies simultaneously do not contravene any act. They are entitled to do so. Furthermore, an agency nurse is entitled to work in more than one hospital on the same day and does not contravene any act either. Many, many nurses work as little as eight hours weekly, others will work more and there are some fulltime nurses who work 84 hours weekly (7x12 hour shifts). Nurses on lesser hours can legally work for an agency. This suits nurses as they can largely choose the hours they wish to work.

Even before any union would get involved if one of them were sacked, hospital managements would be up in arms as there would be a worse nurse shortage.
 

Purple

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13,102
Blame the employer, blame the union, blame the nurse. Nurses who work for hospitals and agencies simultaneously do not contravene any act. They are entitled to do so. Furthermore, an agency nurse is entitled to work in more than one hospital on the same day and does not contravene any act either. Many, many nurses work as little as eight hours weekly, others will work more and there are some fulltime nurses who work 84 hours weekly (7x12 hour shifts). Nurses on lesser hours can legally work for an agency. This suits nurses as they can largely choose the hours they wish to work.

Even before any union would get involved if one of them were sacked, hospital managements would be up in arms as there would be a worse nurse shortage.
I think you need to check your facts there Leper. Nurses work a 39 hour week. If they do 12 hour shifts then they do 3 shifts a week. If they choose to do overtime, of work as an agency nurse or deliver pizza outside of those hours then fair play to them but that's their own business.

Again, the issue is structural reform. The framing of such discussions in an emotional and emotive context suits their unionised brethren in the Irish Times and the Public Sector Broadcaster, RTE, but it doesn't suit the people of Ireland who suffer the consequences of the gross structural inefficiencies within the State Sector. But keep on message, conrade. ;)
 

Leper

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1,772
I think you need to check your facts there Leper. Nurses work a 39 hour week. If they do 12 hour shifts then they do 3 shifts a week. If they choose to do overtime, of work as an agency nurse or deliver pizza outside of those hours then fair play to them but that's their own business.

Again, the issue is structural reform. The framing of such discussions in an emotional and emotive context suits their unionised brethren in the Irish Times and the Public Sector Broadcaster, RTE, but it doesn't suit the people of Ireland who suffer the consequences of the gross structural inefficiencies within the State Sector. But keep on message, conrade. ;)
Hi Mr Purple,
1. "Nurses work a 39 hour week" - You've got that spectacularly wrong; I can almost hear every hospital nurse in the country laughing and guffawing, I kid you not. Have you heard of the week-on-week-off system where nurses work 84 hours night duty in Week 1 and are off in Week 2? They are "compensated" for the additional hours worked too. A fulltime nurse is paid for 39 hours weekly basic pay. I had been under the impression that you knew how hospitals are staffed, but I am wrong.

2. Your second point is in your head and with respect perhaps not in the head of most others. But, keep on posting. Union membership is on the increase because of such posts. I shared a jacuzzi in the leisure centre last night with some of my union friends and we concurred that you are one of the union's excellent recruiters. Keep it up!
 
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