PTSB ptsb withdraws appeal to Supreme Court on trackers; CBI taking enforcement action
- Thread starter barneyg
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Yes I just got a mail from the FSO saying the bank will be in touch in the coming weeks to inform us if they are to redress the situation. If not the FSO can continue each case based on the evidence presented.
All I want is he money we have overpayed, our interest rate to drop to what it should be and compensation for all this stress over the years.
Thank you.
All I want is he money we have overpayed, our interest rate to drop to what it should be and compensation for all this stress over the years.
Thank you.
Brendan Burgess
Founder
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Well done folks. You won!
Statement by permanent tsb Group
Thursday 5th February 2015. permanent tsb has advised the Supreme Court that it is withdrawing appeals to that Court which were scheduled for hearing on the 16th February next. The appeals were in respect of a High Court decision (August 2012) arising from two complaints that had been upheld by the Financial Services Ombudsman (FSO).
The issue relates to the position of four customers (two mortgages) who broke the term of their fixed mortgage rates early and who subsequently wanted to move to tracker rates. The fixed rate mortgages which these customers had been on included a provision that at the expiry of the fixed rate term the customers could revert to a tracker rate. However, as the customers had chosen to break the fixed rate term early, the bank did not permit them to revert to a tracker rate.
The FSO found that the bank had erred by not providing these customers at the time they decided to break the fixed term early with all material information about this consequence of breaking the fixed rate early.
The bank has communicated to the FSO its decision to withdraw the appeals to the Supreme Court. The bank has also indicated to the FSO that it wishes to review a number (circa 80) of similar complaints which the FSO has received, and on which the FSO has not issued a finding pending the outcome of the Supreme Court case.
Speaking today a spokesman for permanent tsb said that the bank was also reviewing how it had dealt with all cases of customers in similar positions (i.e.: mortgage customers who had a fixed rate product which included a right to move to a tracker rate at the end of the agreed fixed rate term but who lost that right because they broke from the fixed rate early).
The spokesman said this review will be concluded and any affected customers will be advised in writing if they are to receive redress as soon as possible. The spokesman also confirmed that this matter is subject to an ongoing enforcement investigation by the Central Bank and that the bank is engaging on this matter.
The bank has set up a dedicated line for customers who may have queries. The LoCall number is 1890 812 781 Monday – Friday, 09.00 – 17.30. Customers dialling from abroad should ring +353 1 2151343.
Statement by permanent tsb Group
Thursday 5th February 2015. permanent tsb has advised the Supreme Court that it is withdrawing appeals to that Court which were scheduled for hearing on the 16th February next. The appeals were in respect of a High Court decision (August 2012) arising from two complaints that had been upheld by the Financial Services Ombudsman (FSO).
The issue relates to the position of four customers (two mortgages) who broke the term of their fixed mortgage rates early and who subsequently wanted to move to tracker rates. The fixed rate mortgages which these customers had been on included a provision that at the expiry of the fixed rate term the customers could revert to a tracker rate. However, as the customers had chosen to break the fixed rate term early, the bank did not permit them to revert to a tracker rate.
The FSO found that the bank had erred by not providing these customers at the time they decided to break the fixed term early with all material information about this consequence of breaking the fixed rate early.
The bank has communicated to the FSO its decision to withdraw the appeals to the Supreme Court. The bank has also indicated to the FSO that it wishes to review a number (circa 80) of similar complaints which the FSO has received, and on which the FSO has not issued a finding pending the outcome of the Supreme Court case.
Speaking today a spokesman for permanent tsb said that the bank was also reviewing how it had dealt with all cases of customers in similar positions (i.e.: mortgage customers who had a fixed rate product which included a right to move to a tracker rate at the end of the agreed fixed rate term but who lost that right because they broke from the fixed rate early).
The spokesman said this review will be concluded and any affected customers will be advised in writing if they are to receive redress as soon as possible. The spokesman also confirmed that this matter is subject to an ongoing enforcement investigation by the Central Bank and that the bank is engaging on this matter.
The bank has set up a dedicated line for customers who may have queries. The LoCall number is 1890 812 781 Monday – Friday, 09.00 – 17.30. Customers dialling from abroad should ring +353 1 2151343.
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Brendan Burgess
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It's very important for those of you who had trackers with ptsb, who subsequently lost them, not to assume that you are going to get them back automatically.
The Ombudsman judges each case on its merits and has dismissed many complaints by ptsb customers who lost their trackers.
I have summarised the issues in these successful cases in the first five posts in this thread.
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/thread...nst-ptsb-on-loss-of-tracker-mortgages.172318/
There is also a link to the High Court judgement. I will try to do another summary and FAQ
The Ombudsman judges each case on its merits and has dismissed many complaints by ptsb customers who lost their trackers.
I have summarised the issues in these successful cases in the first five posts in this thread.
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/thread...nst-ptsb-on-loss-of-tracker-mortgages.172318/
There is also a link to the High Court judgement. I will try to do another summary and FAQ
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Brendan Burgess
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The FSO has released a statement
PRESS RELEASE
Subject: Supreme Court Appeals: Irish Life& Permanent plc t/a permanent tsb –v- Financial Services Ombudsman & Thomas & Healy
Thursday 5th February 2015
The Financial Services Ombudsman (FSO ) welcomes the withdrawal of these two linked appeals by Irish Life & Permanent plc t/a permanent tsb (IL&P) before the Supreme Court this morning. Both appeals were listed for hearing on the 16th February and concerned two of four linked High Court appeals brought by IL&P against a Judgment of the High Court on 3rd August 2012.
The High Court Judgment affirmed the Findings of the Ombudsman in both of these cases. The FSO had upheld the complaints from 2009/2010 where those particular customers of IL&P had switched out of tracker mortgages to a fixed rate and subsequently variable rates. When the customers sought to switch back to a tracker mortgage rate they were informed that they could not do so.
Following the withdrawal of the two Supreme Court appeals, the High Court Judgment remains in place. In particular, the Judgment broadly endorsed the approach of the FSO in these types of cases. The FSO will continue to adjudicate complaints on the basis of these standards and in the context of each individual complaint.
It is acknowledged that the process involved in arriving at the position today, has been a long and difficult one, particularly for the Complainants concerned as well as the many other mortgage holders who have submitted similar type complaints to the Financial Services Ombudsman’s Bureau (FSOB) against IL&P.
The FSOB looks forward to satisfactory closure for all such ongoing complaints as soon as reasonably possible. Each complaint will be dealt with on its individual merits and the FSOB remains committed to now progressing complaints of this nature in accordance with the High Court Judgment, where required.
The FSOB has written today to all affected Complainants to appraise them of the situation.
PRESS RELEASE
Subject: Supreme Court Appeals: Irish Life& Permanent plc t/a permanent tsb –v- Financial Services Ombudsman & Thomas & Healy
Thursday 5th February 2015
The Financial Services Ombudsman (FSO ) welcomes the withdrawal of these two linked appeals by Irish Life & Permanent plc t/a permanent tsb (IL&P) before the Supreme Court this morning. Both appeals were listed for hearing on the 16th February and concerned two of four linked High Court appeals brought by IL&P against a Judgment of the High Court on 3rd August 2012.
The High Court Judgment affirmed the Findings of the Ombudsman in both of these cases. The FSO had upheld the complaints from 2009/2010 where those particular customers of IL&P had switched out of tracker mortgages to a fixed rate and subsequently variable rates. When the customers sought to switch back to a tracker mortgage rate they were informed that they could not do so.
Following the withdrawal of the two Supreme Court appeals, the High Court Judgment remains in place. In particular, the Judgment broadly endorsed the approach of the FSO in these types of cases. The FSO will continue to adjudicate complaints on the basis of these standards and in the context of each individual complaint.
It is acknowledged that the process involved in arriving at the position today, has been a long and difficult one, particularly for the Complainants concerned as well as the many other mortgage holders who have submitted similar type complaints to the Financial Services Ombudsman’s Bureau (FSOB) against IL&P.
The FSOB looks forward to satisfactory closure for all such ongoing complaints as soon as reasonably possible. Each complaint will be dealt with on its individual merits and the FSOB remains committed to now progressing complaints of this nature in accordance with the High Court Judgment, where required.
The FSOB has written today to all affected Complainants to appraise them of the situation.
Brendan Burgess
Founder
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- 54,781
Thanks taldar
Charlie Weston is reporting
"Up to 2,000 other Permanent TSB customers are understood to be in the same position, having been denied trackers. They now stand to be restored to their trackers and to get a windfall to make up for their losses over the last six years."
RTE says
A €200k mortgage @ 4.5% instead of 1% would be €7,000 a year. If they have been overcharged for 5 years, that is €35,000. Without even considering the savings in future years.
Brendan
Charlie Weston is reporting
"Up to 2,000 other Permanent TSB customers are understood to be in the same position, having been denied trackers. They now stand to be restored to their trackers and to get a windfall to make up for their losses over the last six years."
RTE says
A €200k mortgage @ 4.5% instead of 1% would be €7,000 a year. If they have been overcharged for 5 years, that is €35,000. Without even considering the savings in future years.
Brendan
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random2011
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Some PTSB customers had mortgages where they would have started out on day 1 with a 3 year Fixed rate and the contract would have stated that upon expiry of the fixed rate the loan would automatically switch to a tracker.
So would these customers also be affected by the ruling if they broke out of the fixed and subsequently did not get offered a tracker. Or does it specifically apply only to customers who on Day 1 had a tracker and then switched to Fixed, broke out and moved to a variable rate before the end of the 3 years.
I know when we took a mortgage with PTSB in 2006 we were looking at the tracker which was a margin of 1.15 at the time but the advise from the bank and broker was as we were young why not fix for three years and your tracker will be an option for you upon expiration. This was true but upon expiration the margin had increased to 3.25%. Problem for us was the 1.15% was not stated anywhere in the original contract. We went with SVR..and the rest is history
So would these customers also be affected by the ruling if they broke out of the fixed and subsequently did not get offered a tracker. Or does it specifically apply only to customers who on Day 1 had a tracker and then switched to Fixed, broke out and moved to a variable rate before the end of the 3 years.
I know when we took a mortgage with PTSB in 2006 we were looking at the tracker which was a margin of 1.15 at the time but the advise from the bank and broker was as we were young why not fix for three years and your tracker will be an option for you upon expiration. This was true but upon expiration the margin had increased to 3.25%. Problem for us was the 1.15% was not stated anywhere in the original contract. We went with SVR..and the rest is history
Great news at last really hooe it works out for everyone. We had fixed rate and broke out of it early and went on svr. When i read my original contracts etc it stated tat at the end of fixed rate we would revert to tracker. Long story short we werent advised about loosing the tracker rate if we went on variable. We werent penalised either and just so everyone know when i questioned ptsb in my complaint about no penalty they wrote saying it was due to a system issue they had (ithink it was around jan - mar 2009) how coincidental lol. So i further complained that they never bovered telling us after either. Id say theres 1000s of customers that dont have a clue about ptsb mistreatment of there customers. Im awaiting fso decision on my case pending the supreme court ruling but as thats not happening fingers crossed
Also ptsb are saying its doing a review but is it not a case that they have had there opportunity to do there review hence the reason i went to the fso and am waiting hus judgement not a review from ptsb. Surely legally ptsb couldnt do that as its with the fso if you get me. Does anyone have any views on this
Brendan Burgess
Founder
- Messages
- 54,781
It's very important for those of you who had trackers with ptsb, who subsequently lost them, not to assume that you are going to get them back automatically.
The Ombudsman judges each case on its merits and has dismissed many complaints by ptsb customers who lost their trackers.
I have summarised the issues in these successful cases in the first five posts in this thread.
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/thread...nst-ptsb-on-loss-of-tracker-mortgages.172318/
There is also a link to the High Court judgement. I will try to do another summary and FAQ
The Ombudsman judges each case on its merits and has dismissed many complaints by ptsb customers who lost their trackers.
I have summarised the issues in these successful cases in the first five posts in this thread.
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/thread...nst-ptsb-on-loss-of-tracker-mortgages.172318/
There is also a link to the High Court judgement. I will try to do another summary and FAQ
Brendan Burgess
Founder
- Messages
- 54,781
I have drafted an FAQ on the topic here and would welcome any additional questions or corrections
Are you entitled to get your tracker back from ptsb?
Are you entitled to get your tracker back from ptsb?
I also have a case pending with FSO, mine mirrors the Thomas Case. I called ptsb today and was told 3 months, demanded to speak to a senior individual and she told me she would investigate if my account was under review and try and give me a clearer timescale, she is returning my call today. When originally making this complaint I got a response from Cathal MacCarthy head of Legal, through his receptionist. Maybe if we all Bombard them with correspondence they might move quicker. Pm for her direct email address. I also ,contacted fso and made it clear that this timescale was unacceptable at this stage, ptsb have had way too long to deal with this, and should not be afforded any longer.
I wouldn't mind but I got a letter in post today to inform me my repayments are INCREASING due to tax relief... the bloody check of them and them owing me a small fortune at this stage:mad:
I wouldn't mind but I got a letter in post today to inform me my repayments are INCREASING due to tax relief... the bloody check of them and them owing me a small fortune at this stage:mad:
I got a letter from FSO to say the bank will be in touch etc.
Just wondering if there is a refund what will it be on the basis of exactly? The years after the fixed i/r's that were not on tracker or for the fixed period on the basis a person may not have fixed if they were fully made aware of the consequences?
This will be important for people if offered a refund and knowing whether to accept it or appeal it to the FSO.
Just wondering if there is a refund what will it be on the basis of exactly? The years after the fixed i/r's that were not on tracker or for the fixed period on the basis a person may not have fixed if they were fully made aware of the consequences?
This will be important for people if offered a refund and knowing whether to accept it or appeal it to the FSO.
Brendan Burgess
Founder
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I found my loan offer which outlines how to work out the penalty that applied to breaking a fixed rate. As I have mentioned elsewhere there was none if the rate you switched to (in the hope it would go down soon as it did) was higher than your fixed rate. Therefore for me there was no system error that cost them millions in lost break out penalties!
Attachments
When we broke out of our fixed we was told that they was offering a special offer for 28days that there would be no break out charge we just had to send a fax. i asked them if we was lossing anything and they said no. This call has gone missing even though i was able to tell them the time and date it was made. Case with FSO since 2011 awaiting reply. That call would of proved not a system error......
Brendan Burgess
Founder
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Do you have a copy of the fax you sent? Did you refer to the content of the call?
Brendan
Yes have a copy of fax with FSO. mentioned some details in fax but not all. stated based on information from call that we would like to switch to variable rate as agreed this would not cost us anything. but never mentioned in fax 28 day offer or that they said we wouldn't be lossing out on anything. Can a court not request the full tapes for that day in question. They must have them they just wont give them to FSO.
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