PTSB PTSB - on expiry of fixed rate, tracker rate not specified

Kelmcc

Registered User
Messages
16
How come people who came out of fixed rates at the same time were offered different margins?? I have been put on 3.3% and my Dad on 2.4%, both of us broke out of our fixed rates in February 2009.
can anyone shed any light on this? I'm not too impressed with the rate I've been given
 

matan

Frequent Poster
Messages
68
Yes kelmcc you probably both had different percentages in your letter of offer i.e. ur dad might have been 2% above ECB. Long wait for letters to arrive.
 

Highchair

Registered User
Messages
7
Hi Brendan,
I am one of the many PTSB customers who had an unspecified tracker in my contract. In Feb 08 you posted a letter sent to intermediaries explaining details of how these new rates would work. Do you think you could repost it here? There was a table that was removed from the post with specific rates for different dates and I'd really love to see it. I'm finding the whole thing confusing as looking at that information, it looks like up to end of 2006 customers were given specified rates and then between 17th April 2007-nov 2007 they were too. Did people who applied for loans from Dec 06 and 17th April 07 fall between the cracks? Going by that info it seems someone who applied for a mortgage on, for eg 20th April 07 and came off their 2 year fixed on 20th April 2009 got a rate of ECB +1.1% but someone applying 5 days earlier in 2007 and coming off on 15th April 2009 got a contract with an unspecified rate which turned out to be ECB +2.35%. Seems like a huge difference for 5 days?
 
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Wardy7

Guest
I have simplified my situation in my mind and it makes perfect sense to me now!!

According to their rates, when I was DUE to exit fixed rate in April 10, I would have been on 3.25+ECB, so that's what they've put me on now.

However, had things originally proceeded as they should have, when I ACTUALLY exited the fixed rate in January 09, I would have been put on tracker rate of 1.68+ECB, so that's what I'm looking for now!!
 

Gregory

Registered User
Messages
17
I see where you are coming from Wardy7, but I don't think PTSB will allow that. Their admitted fault is that they didn't inform people they lost their right to a tracker when switching to variable, that's why they are calculating it from end of the initial fixed rate term. It was our decision to break out of fixed rate to go to variable, not tracker. Mine was due to end in May 09 (I broke in Jan 09) and iv been put on ECB + 2.25%. Whats anybody else's view on this?
 
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Wardy7

Guest
But Gregory, if you think about like this.....just say that this fiasco hadn't happened at all and that PTSB were a wonderfully honest entity ........when I broke in January 09, the 3.25+ECB rate didn't even exist.

I know why they're giving me the 3.3% rate but I should have went from fixed to 1.68+ECB in January 09. Took me a little time to wrap my head around it but I feel it's very straight forward and logical. I won't be letting go.......
 

AAM_User

Frequent Poster
Messages
114
I have simplified my situation in my mind and it makes perfect sense to me now!!

According to their rates, when I was DUE to exit fixed rate in April 10, I would have been on 3.25+ECB, so that's what they've put me on now.

However, had things originally proceeded as they should have, when I ACTUALLY exited the fixed rate in January 09, I would have been put on tracker rate of 1.68+ECB, so that's what I'm looking for now!!
This sounds like some sharp practice going on wardy. Haven't others reported that their received documentation has made the adjustment that the tracker only kicked in when it should have also (e.g. broke out in Feb, was supposed to in Aug, adjustment made from Aug)?

In effect it sounds like they're saying they're not going to give a refund for the months the fixed had to run but are applying the higher rate from when you actually broke out.
 
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Wardy7

Guest
Exactly!! Which is totally wrong. In my opinion, they are now trying to make it up as they go along.

I've requested my calculations so until I get them, I can't be full sure of when they applied the refund from.

As I have said in earlier posts, we broke contract, but with complete agreement with PTSB, so the tracker rate should have been applied immediately on exit. At that time, the rate was 1.68+ECB, but they've now applied a rate of 3.25+ECB to me. This rate came along 15 months after I came off fixed!!! I actually can't wait to see these calculations as it can only clarify further.

Watch this space!
 
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George13

Registered User
Messages
21
That was my argument all along Wardy7 when I wrote many letters to PTSB but I was ignored.

Just in case it has not been mentioned the 3.25% is not quite plucked out of thin air. When I would have broke out in Feb 10 the variable rate I reckon was around 4.15% and the ECB rate was 1% so I would expect the PTSB margin to be around 3.15%. You need a high ECB rate to get a low PTSB margin ie 2006-2008
 

random2011

Frequent Poster
Messages
172
TAKEN FROM MY CONTRACT WITH PTSB

Special Condition A.
General mortgage loan approval condition 5 conditions relating to fixed rate loans applies in this case. The interest rate specified above May vary before the date of issue of the loan. On expiry of the fixed rate period, and where the applicant chooses the option of a tracker mortgage interest rate, the interest rate applicable to the loan will be the tracker mortgage rate appropriate to the balance outstanding on the loan at the date of expiry of the fixed rate period.

So what exactly does that mean "appropriate to the balance outstanding on the loan at the date of expiry of the fixed rate period" . It does not sound like it is appropriate to what the bank feel they can apply, it does not sound like it is related to the ECB rate at that time and it does not sound like it is appropriate to the banks cost of funds/wholesale lending/strategic defaulters costing the banks etc etc

If I complete the fixed period which I did then the balance should be what was expected when we started the fixed period 3 years earlier. If anything the rate could be lower than the margins offered at the beginning of the fixed rate.
 

ppcjbm

Registered User
Messages
8
TAKEN FROM MY CONTRACT WITH PTSB

Special Condition A.
General mortgage loan approval condition 5 conditions relating to fixed rate loans applies in this case. The interest rate specified above May vary before the date of issue of the loan. On expiry of the fixed rate period, and where the applicant chooses the option of a tracker mortgage interest rate, the interest rate applicable to the loan will be the tracker mortgage rate appropriate to the balance outstanding on the loan at the date of expiry of the fixed rate period.

So what exactly does that mean "appropriate to the balance outstanding on the loan at the date of expiry of the fixed rate period" . It does not sound like it is appropriate to what the bank feel they can apply, it does not sound like it is related to the ECB rate at that time and it does not sound like it is appropriate to the banks cost of funds/wholesale lending/strategic defaulters costing the banks etc etc

If I complete the fixed period which I did then the balance should be what was expected when we started the fixed period 3 years earlier. If anything the rate could be lower than the margins offered at the beginning of the fixed rate.
The definition of tracker mortage loan under the consumer credit act 1995 clearly states the amount of the percentage over the ecb rate will depend on the amount of the loan and that percentage will not be exceeded during the term of the loan.I'm not an expert by any standards but to me this seems to suggest that you margin should be what it was when the term of the mortgage began until the end .anyone else any thoughts?
 

joe351980

Frequent Poster
Messages
94
On my open 24 account it says 'Tracker <80% <500,000 ECB+0.8%'. Would this suggest that my loan is, tracker rate, is less than 80% LTV and the total amount mortgaged is less than 500,000. I would think this is how my rate was calculated as by definition of a tracker
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
39,102
On my open 24 account it says 'Tracker <80% <500,000 ECB+0.8%'. Would this suggest that my loan is, tracker rate, is less than 80% LTV and the total amount mortgaged is less than 500,000. I would think this is how my rate was calculated as by definition of a tracker
I am confused. What has this got to do with this thread?
 

joe351980

Frequent Poster
Messages
94
The definition of tracker mortage loan under the consumer credit act 1995 clearly states the amount of the percentage over the ecb rate will depend on the amount of the loan
Sorry Brendan, if the tracker rate is not specified ptsb are just picking a number randomly (3.25/2.25). My rate is calculated by being less than 80% LTV and less than 500,000 euro. Therefore I would think anyone with a mortgage of less than 80% LTV and <500,000 should be calculated at 0.8% as the rate will depend on the amount of the loan

Yes I had rate specified in my contract
 
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Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
39,102
I see your point.

You have a rate specified in your contract. They decided that rate at the time based on the LTV and the amount borrowed. That really is the end of it.

In early to mid 2009, when people were coming out of fixed rates and their contract entitled them to a tracker at the then prevailing rate, ptsb put them on rates of 2.25%. Later in 2009, they upped this rate to 3.25%. These are in line with the SVR ptsb was charging at the time. Unfortunately for the borrowers, the contract allows ptsb to set the tracker margin as ptsb sees fit.
 

joe351980

Frequent Poster
Messages
94
it would be interesting to look at any historic mortgages and see when their rate is calculated from. Is it commencement date of the mortgage or on expiry of the fixed term
 

Highchair

Registered User
Messages
7
I see your point.

You have a rate specified in your contract. They decided that rate at the time based on the LTV and the amount borrowed. That really is the end of it.

In early to mid 2009, when people were coming out of fixed rates and their contract entitled them to a tracker at the then prevailing rate, ptsb put them on rates of 2.25%. Later in 2009, they upped this rate to 3.25%. These are in line with the SVR ptsb was charging at the time. Unfortunately for the borrowers, the contract allows ptsb to set the tracker margin as ptsb sees fit.
Hey Brendan, just a question regarding your statement
' These are in line with the SVR ptsb was charging at the time. Unfortunately for the borrowers, the contract allows ptsb to set the tracker margin as ptsb sees fit'
How can you conclude the above?Even in scenarios where the bank haven't specified rates I think it's a bit of a leap to decide they were within their rights without knowing the specifics of peoples' mortgage conditions
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
39,102
I think it's a bit of a leap to decide they were within their rights without knowing the specifics of peoples' mortgage conditions
Highchair

The mortgage conditions were fairly standard, e.g. the one quoted above:

On expiry of the fixed rate period, and where the applicant chooses the option of a tracker mortgage interest rate, the interest rate applicable to the loan will be the tracker mortgage rate appropriate to the balance outstanding on the loan at the date of expiry of the fixed rate period.

If I had one of these mortgages, I would certainly get Counsel's Opinion on it and see if there were any angle which could be found to get a lower rate. In my non professional opinion, a clause such as this gives them the right to set the mortgage rate. But I would love to be proven wrong.

And of course, some contracts may have other wording which is more vulnerable.

Brendan
 
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