I found out myself when I was seven, give kids a little credit. The whole country was more or less raised cathloic, yet prob less than half now practice. My point is that it is hardly a brain washing scenario we have on our hands.
Nutters in Knock
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I found out myself when I was seven, give kids a little credit. The whole country was more or less raised cathloic, yet prob less than half now practice. My point is that it is hardly a brain washing scenario we have on our hands.
Of course. That was all I was ever saying. I think it was thought that by implication I was ridiculing the wider catholic church and/or Christianity itself but I wasn't.
L
lightswitch
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"I think if I was there Id be a little frightened at the mass delusion tbh, how would you feel in the middle of a group of people claiming to see things that you couldnt see? Id be wondering if I was crazy or were they crazy! "
At least now you know how the minority felt for the 5 years preceding the "soft landing" we are currently experiencing.
At least now you know how the minority felt for the 5 years preceding the "soft landing" we are currently experiencing.
For what it's worth I'm with you on this. But I need things to be even more logical so I've decided they all were for sure on Valium otherwise I couldn't live with myself.
truthseeker
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Can I just get some clarity on this - are you saying that I could get free Valium if I signed up to the deluded masses?
What are we waiting for!!
L
lightswitch
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If they were all on Valium Bronte they most probably wouldn't have bothered going in the first place. Maybe LSD is making a comeback, they do say the country is riddled with drugs
I think the way that some people behaved at Knock was completely senseless. I felt like I was in a mad house, and that reality and normal behaviour were temporarily suspended.
What happened there as far as I could see was:
1/. At 3pm everyone was looking at the statues behind the old church in Knock to see would Our Lady appear. The visionary who has predicted she would come had said she would.
2/. She did not appear. No one saw her there.
3/. The visionary then said Our Lady told him to tell everyone to look at the sky and Our Lady would send them a sign.
4/. Most people, at the invitation of the priest over the loudspeaker went into the Basilica for mass and had no interest in looking at the sky. Many people stared at the sky.
5/. The vast majority of people who stared at the sky saw nothing unusual.
6/. A small minority of people claimed they saw ‘the sun dancing’ and one woman is reported in the local newspaper to having said ‘I spoke to the Blessed Virgin. She was fading in and out of the clouds. She didn’t appear in full form this time. But she did say she would be back’.
7/. Not one priest said he saw anything unusual.
8/. Not one photograph has appeared of anything unusual, and there were at least two professional photographers present, along with many people having their own camera.
Being there made me realise how wildly conflicting reports about the same incident can be given from people. Hundreds of people were there. One group claims they saw nothing. One group claims they saw the unusual colours and movements of the sun in the sky. Others claim that Our Lady spoke to them. It illustrates how easily it could have been for those people in Knock who claim they saw the original apparition to have been completely mistaken, and how easily they could have made people believe they saw something at the time.
To exclude religion from this for a moment, it is funny to be part of a society where people simply can’t look up at the sky and accurately bear witness to what there was to see.………a bright sun, a few clouds and a blue sky……and nothing more!
There is no escaping craziness of it all - some people in Knock on Sunday claimed that Our Lady, Mary, Mother of God appeared in the sky and spoke to them, whereas the reality was it was a nice bright day with a few clouds in the sky! And that is not an embarrassment? Yes it is. As Fr. Dougal would say “That’s mad Ted!”
Have they a right to believe what they want? Yes. Are people entitled to believe in God? Of course. But the people in Knock last Sunday are wrong to say things happened when the reality is they didn’t happen. The only explanation is that they saw what they wanted to see and interpreted things, as they wanted to interpret them.
What happened there as far as I could see was:
1/. At 3pm everyone was looking at the statues behind the old church in Knock to see would Our Lady appear. The visionary who has predicted she would come had said she would.
2/. She did not appear. No one saw her there.
3/. The visionary then said Our Lady told him to tell everyone to look at the sky and Our Lady would send them a sign.
4/. Most people, at the invitation of the priest over the loudspeaker went into the Basilica for mass and had no interest in looking at the sky. Many people stared at the sky.
5/. The vast majority of people who stared at the sky saw nothing unusual.
6/. A small minority of people claimed they saw ‘the sun dancing’ and one woman is reported in the local newspaper to having said ‘I spoke to the Blessed Virgin. She was fading in and out of the clouds. She didn’t appear in full form this time. But she did say she would be back’.
7/. Not one priest said he saw anything unusual.
8/. Not one photograph has appeared of anything unusual, and there were at least two professional photographers present, along with many people having their own camera.
Being there made me realise how wildly conflicting reports about the same incident can be given from people. Hundreds of people were there. One group claims they saw nothing. One group claims they saw the unusual colours and movements of the sun in the sky. Others claim that Our Lady spoke to them. It illustrates how easily it could have been for those people in Knock who claim they saw the original apparition to have been completely mistaken, and how easily they could have made people believe they saw something at the time.
To exclude religion from this for a moment, it is funny to be part of a society where people simply can’t look up at the sky and accurately bear witness to what there was to see.………a bright sun, a few clouds and a blue sky……and nothing more!
There is no escaping craziness of it all - some people in Knock on Sunday claimed that Our Lady, Mary, Mother of God appeared in the sky and spoke to them, whereas the reality was it was a nice bright day with a few clouds in the sky! And that is not an embarrassment? Yes it is. As Fr. Dougal would say “That’s mad Ted!”
Have they a right to believe what they want? Yes. Are people entitled to believe in God? Of course. But the people in Knock last Sunday are wrong to say things happened when the reality is they didn’t happen. The only explanation is that they saw what they wanted to see and interpreted things, as they wanted to interpret them.
Ceist Beag
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If, as you say yourself, you find it difficult to respect someones intelligence if they believe in God simply because you don't get it yourself then I'd have to conclude that yes, that is a failing on your part. Simply because you don't get it is no reason to equate it with a lack of intelligence in those who do believe.
People choose to believe for a whole range of reasons, very few of which I would think myself are because of any argument based on fact.
truthseeker
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You misunderstood me - what I dont get is how these people can believe in the face of zero evidence.
I get the god thing - I just dont personally believe it.
Do you think it shows intelligence to believe things based on zero evidence?
Z
z107
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One - very interesting post.
I suppose people have to realise that the eyes and brain are very sophisticated sensory apparatus. Unlike video cameras etc, the brain interprets what the eyes see. This can be demonstrated by simple experiments, for example, the 'blind spot'. It is very hard to take a photograph of a rainbow, sunset or fireworks. However, our eyes and brain can interpret these wonderfully.
I believe the Sun 'dancing' effect could have been produced by involuntary eye movements to stop people burning holes in their retinas. Other visions could probably be the result of brain interpretation in conjunction with strong external suggestion.
What scares me most is the whole voting and democracy system.
I suppose people have to realise that the eyes and brain are very sophisticated sensory apparatus. Unlike video cameras etc, the brain interprets what the eyes see. This can be demonstrated by simple experiments, for example, the 'blind spot'. It is very hard to take a photograph of a rainbow, sunset or fireworks. However, our eyes and brain can interpret these wonderfully.
I believe the Sun 'dancing' effect could have been produced by involuntary eye movements to stop people burning holes in their retinas. Other visions could probably be the result of brain interpretation in conjunction with strong external suggestion.
What scares me most is the whole voting and democracy system.
Ceist Beag
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There you go again equating intelligence with faith. Like I said, people choose to believe for a load of different reasons. It's far too simplistic to put it down to a lack of intelligence to believe in something you have seen no evidence for.
truthseeker
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Ceist Beag
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I'm sure there are a million reasons! It could be anything from a need within people, maybe as a result of a personal event, maybe as a result of a tragedy, who knows. I'm sure there are people who don't even know themselves why they believe. Maybe they grew up thinking they had to believe as a result of their upbringing and never questioned it. Maybe it's not that important to them but if asked they would still say that the believe. Maybe it gives people a certain humility believing their is a being greater than anything in this world. I don't know. But I would say that it's not a black and white issue and I wouldn't be surprised if you asked 100 people who do believe why they do believe and get 100 different answers.
Anyways, this is a bit heavy given the thread is about some nutters who nearly went blind looking directly a the sun!!
This had nothing to do with Christian faith. It was an act of pure superstition instigated by a clairvoyant. I don't believe Christian faith entered into it.
I guess my answer is that the world has so many unanswered questions and therefore i won't rule anything out.
the earth was flat at one time remember so a whole new way of thinking could be just around the corner. I don't believe that any of us can say for sure that if we were created by god, aliens, or a big bang. I just keep an open mind and don't throw myself blindly into any way of life.
truthseeker
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What way would you bet on Pascals Wager?
Yes, a big one.
The existence of a god or gods cannot be proved or disproved - for the moment.
The notion that the sun 'danced in the sky' or 'changed colour' or behaved in any way out of the ordinary can be easily disproved.
truthseeker
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And what about the people who said Our Lady appeared to them - how can one prove or disprove that? Sure we could play them back a video of it showing nothing appeared, but theyre gonna argue that she only appeared to the 'faithful'.