Northern Rock bailed out by Bank of England

I regard the initial rush to get money out as irrational given the facts. It was primarily an emotional response to words like 'emergency funding' and the manner in which it was reported. You could argue that seeing a bank run and believing the UK government are going to allow it to bust the bank (even after having committed to stand behind it), it is then rational to want to get your money out before it's all gone. I certainly did not believe it would get that far as the political consequences would have been disastrous for the Labour government. It would have been an act of suicide. What's more it could very easily get out of control and spread like wildfire to other institutions in the wake of NR's collapse. They had to do whatever was necessary to stop the rot, and they did.
I don't think you can really argue that the depositors withdrawing their money from NR last week were irrational. The head of the BoE, Mervyn King has even commented that under the circumstances they did what they should have done. When the problems became public, if they had any more than 2000 pounds in the account then they stood to lose some of it if went bust. If they had larger sums in their account they would have lost all the money that exceeded 35,000 pounds. It wasn't so much a case of the BoE not going to allow it to go bust but more the point that their hands were tied (and still are) with the amount of support that they can actually give NR. They can't prop up companies with bad and irresponsible business models as this would be seen as an illegal incentive under EU legislation.
 
I regard the initial rush to get money out as irrational given the facts.

I guess we'll have to disagree there. When I give my money to a bank I expect the bank not to overextend itself in how much it lends out to the point that its short term liabilities cannot be met (£3bn in equity + £28 billion in deposits against a mortgage book of £113 billion, the bank was primed for a run). Nor would I expect it to be investing in the US subprime mortgage market. If I hold an instant access account then I expect it to mean just that. If any bank I hold cash with needs to apply for emergency funding from a central bank because it can no longer obtain funding from the money markets, then that tells me all I need to know about how safe my money is.

It was primarily an emotional response to words like 'emergency funding' and the manner in which it was reported. You could argue that seeing a bank run and believing the UK government are going to allow it to bust the bank (even after having committed to stand behind it), it is then rational to want to get your money out before it's all gone. I certainly did not believe it would get that far as the political consequences would have been disastrous for the Labour government. It would have been an act of suicide. What's more it could very easily get out of control and spread like wildfire to other institutions in the wake of NR's collapse. They had to do whatever was necessary to stop the rot, and they did.

Given that Mervyn King had only the day before warned about the dangers of bailing out banks which had behaved imprudently, I certainly consider it unexpected that deposits (esp. Irish deposits) would become UK public debt and Northern Rock would be effectively nationalised so quickly.

But it wasn't just about the £24 billion in deposits, you're also looking at its loan book of £113 billion which is considered to be of superior quality to the UK average with numbers of mortgages three months or more in arrears only half the industry average. The Bank of England was satisfied to accept these mortgages as collateral for the funding. The FSA stated the bank exceeded its regulatory capital requirement. It seemed quite reasonable to believe that they would not have provided the funding had the bank not been solid. In a sense by the time the news broke, the danger had passed - it had got a clean bill of health and was backed by the Bank of England. Two weeks ago, when everyone was sleeping like babies thinking their money was completely safe, there was perhaps more reason for concern but it's just we didn't know about it so we weren't concerned.

If the bank is so safe why:

- Did its debt trade at implied junk bond status on the credit markets (this was before it was nationalised so NR debt is now effectively UK taxpayer debt)?
- Why did the share price plummet to below even book value for those loans you speak so highly of?

As to what's my reward for not doing anything and keeping my cash in NR. Well, I enjoyed not having to queue for hours outside the office in Dublin for one thing and it was great not to waste the weekend trying to get through the online system to complete a transfer that would have been so slow anyway, it probably wouldn't have arrived in time to make any difference had the situation really been that bad.

Not true. If the bank goes into receivership or liquidators are appointed, there'll be a big difference in how they treat deposit accounts where a withdrawal request has been made prior to receivership and those who did not make such a request.

But more importantly, I didn't want to participate in the needless destruction of a bank that has made a massive difference to the rates savers in Ireland can expect on deposit. I've always been a satisfied customer and I valued their presence in the market greatly. Sadly, it looks like the brand is finished, its reputation irreparably tarnished by the media storm and the queues outside its doors (I know some people will argue its business model brought it on itself, but I'm talking about what precisely did the most damage to the brand in the public mind).

Well it was their business model that brought it on itself. It was a faulty business model and they duped their customers. They were gone even if not one single customer requested a withdrawal. Their business model and aggressive expansion required access to a liquid ABCP market at LIBOR rates. When this market collapsed their business model was history. They couldn't run a sustainable business based on lending long term at rates below the short term rates they were borrowing at.

If Northern Rock's operation in Ireland is wound down by itself or possible new owners then it's going to have an impact on deposit rates. Why should other banks offer the rates they do at the moment if one of their biggest competitors has disappeared? Even if you don't have money in NR, its mere presence in the market was influencing the rate you receive. People say what have you to gain by leaving it there? well, we'll see what we've lost in the months and years ahead I reckon.

Personally I wouldn't want to put my money at risk for an extra quarter-point interest. Their are equity and corporate bond markets where I can take such risks for greater reward.

But fair enough,perhaps some savers do. The real tragedy is in the emergence of a sort of corporate socialism, where business are not allowed to fail and losses are nationalised to be borne by the taxpayer. In the end, this merely rewards banks like NR that are profligate with the deposits with which they are entrusted, at the expense of more prudent banks.

Lastly, it has to be said that in fairness to the people who queued and besieged the web site, their actions look likely to result in a better deposit compensation scheme from the UK authorities. Lets hope there's a UK based bank still operating here under the scheme so we can take advantage of that enhanced protection in the future.

Well, that better deposit protection scheme comes at the expense of the taxpayers so my thinking is that it is unlikely to apply to Ireland.
 
withdrew my NR savings at 3.15 am last Saturday.
this morning, finally, it turned up in BoI - hurrah!

I thought NR played with a fairly straight bat at first but then started spinning madly from mid-week - no calls or emails returned, laughable claims about people making lodgements, etc.

Time for a celebratory meal tonight...

Many thanks for the practical advice given by contributors here...
 
The real tragedy is in the emergence of a sort of corporate socialism, where business are not allowed to fail and losses are nationalised to be borne by the taxpayer. In the end, this merely rewards banks like NR that are profligate with the deposits with which they are entrusted, at the expense of more prudent banks.

It also irks me that the banks seem to have this safety net provided by the taxpayer; AIB/ICI anyone?

However, given the widespread economic damage that would be caused by the collapse of a major bank, it's unavoidable.
 
Interestingly, ahead of me in NR's office yesterday was a man looking to open an account. The beleaguered NR staff member automatically handed him a withdrawal form to fill in and the man said, no I want to open an account. You'd swear the man had asked the staffer if he liked to eat raw human flesh for his dinner judging by his reaction.

Whatever about holding firm with your account, it seems a strange time to be opening one. He'll struggle in the short to medium term to get any online access.

The people I felt sorry for were those who genuinely needed the money and not those in blind panic. I heard a woman interviewed on the radio early in the week who was going on holiday the next day and had no choice but to stand in the queue all day. She was leaving the rest of her money there and just taking what she needed for her hols, but had to do it.

I was in a similar boat given that I need the money early next week, but there was no way I wss queueing all day. I just got lucky yesterday when there were no queues, having given up on phone and internet.
 
I guess we'll have to disagree there. When I give my money to a bank I expect the bank not to overextend itself in how much it lends out to the point that its short term liabilities cannot be met (£3bn in equity + £28 billion in deposits against a mortgage book of £113 billion, the bank was primed for a run). Nor would I expect it to be investing in the US subprime mortgage market. If I hold an instant access account then I expect it to mean just that. If any bank I hold cash with needs to apply for emergency funding from a central bank because it can no longer obtain funding from the money markets, then that tells me all I need to know about how safe my money is.

When we give our money to banks they dont keep it locked up safe waiting for us to come back. they go and loan it out, sell it on, make as much as they can with it. this is how banks opperate. A bank works on the principal that everyone will not come looking for their money all at the same time, therefore they keep enough liquid to satisfy normal demand and play with the rest. Also many banks including Irish ones regulary go to the ECB for loans, its just not made public
 
withdrew my NR savings at 3.15 am last Saturday.
this morning, finally, it turned up in BoI - hurrah!

Congrats. Next challenge is getting your cash out of BOI. I went into my branch to transfer and they did such a sales job on me trying to convince me to leave it with them that I thought I'd never get out the door.

Fair play to them for trying (they even matched NR deposit interest rates) but I'm determined not to leave a penny more with them than is covered by deposit guarantee.
 
If the bank is so safe why:

- Did its debt trade at implied junk bond status on the credit markets (this was before it was nationalised so NR debt is now effectively UK taxpayer debt)?
- Why did the share price plummet to below even book value for those loans you speak so highly of?

Markets can wildly overvalue assets and they can wildly undervalue them too. In the present climate, anything mortgage-based is likely to be treated as suspect regardless of whether it's good or bad. The Bank of England have carried out due diligence and deem NR's loan book of sufficient quality to provide funding. You clearly place very little store in that while I am prepared to accept their assessment. Again, this is something we'll just have to disagree on, I guess

The arguments about the status of its debt or its share price would appear much more compelling to me a few weeks ago when we didn't know the Bank of England's assessment. Despite not being an NR depositor yourself, you have decided to weigh in to this debate in the middle of a bank run to encourage people to get their money out. It might have been more helpful for NR depositors here if you had contributed your observations on NR's inherent riskiness as prominently a number of weeks ago. I don't see how spreading doubt and mistrust in a situation like this is really all that helpful once panic has taken hold.


Not true. If the bank goes into receivership or liquidators are appointed, there'll be a big difference in how they treat deposit accounts where a withdrawal request has been made prior to receivership and those who did not make such a request.

Fair enough. I didn't know that. It wouldn't have changed my behaviour in any case.

Personally I wouldn't want to put my money at risk for an extra quarter-point interest. Their are equity and corporate bond markets where I can take such risks for greater reward.

Well, it's 0.75% in my case, not that it probably makes much difference considering your assessment of the risk.

Well, that better deposit protection scheme comes at the expense of the taxpayers so my thinking is that it is unlikely to apply to Ireland.

I can't say I'm surprised by that.
 
The people I felt sorry for were those who genuinely needed the money and not those in blind panic. I heard a woman interviewed on the radio early in the week who was going on holiday the next day and had no choice but to stand in the queue all day. She was leaving the rest of her money there and just taking what she needed for her hols, but had to do it.

I was in a similar boat given that I need the money early next week, but there was no way I wss queueing all day. I just got lucky yesterday when there were no queues, having given up on phone and internet.

Yes, these are the people who really suffered because of the mad dash to get the money out. There may have been serious problems caused for people who needed to access the money over the last few days and just couldn't.
 
When we give our money to banks they dont keep it locked up safe waiting for us to come back. they go and loan it out, sell it on, make as much as they can with it. this is how banks opperate. A bank works on the principal that everyone will not come looking for their money all at the same time, therefore they keep enough liquid to satisfy normal demand and play with the rest.

Thanks for the primer but I am well aware of how banks operate. However, loaning out over 3 times your deposit base is downright reckless. NR were and still are heavily leveraged.

Anyone wishing to understand NR's business model, explained in layman's terms could do worse than read this article by Microsoft's money man, Jim Jubak.

Northern Rock's loan book is 3.1 times its deposit base, for example. And, because loans are growing far faster than deposits, the bank's reliance on the capital markets increases as well. At the end of 2006, about 73% of the funding for mortgages at Northern Rock came from the capital markets. In the first half of 2007, its dependence had climbed to 85%.That dependence is intrinsically dangerous because it is based on a mismatch between the lender's short-term liabilities, its borrowings in the commercial-paper market and other short-term markets, and its long-term assets, the 30-year mortgages that back the lender's debt.
In a worst-case scenario, the company can find itself shut out of the short-term-debt market. If the company can't find bank loans to replace the capital from the debt markets, it has to look for a lender of last resort and hope that one of the world's central banks will decide that letting the company go under would do an unacceptably large amount of damage to the financial markets.That's exactly what happened at Northern Rock. The company found itself cut off from the debt markets. No private buyer, after looking at the likelihood that the company needed an infusion of $15 billion to keep its business going, was willing to step forward. And so the Bank of England extended a line of credit to Northern Rock, and when that didn't calm the financial markets, announced that it would guarantee depositors' savings. (That last isn't small potatoes in a country where deposit insurance covers only $70,000 of a depositor's money.)
Northern Rock is certainly not out of the woods. It's unlikely that the bank will remain independent, and it's not clear who will buy the business that remains without some further government bailout.
Also many banks including Irish ones regulary go to the ECB for loans, its just not made public.

This is simply not true. You are either making it up as you go along or don't know what you are talking about. Irish banks may have been involved in bidding for some ECB liquidity injections, but this is no different in many respects from bidding in the interbank lending markets and is fundamentally different to NR's plea for emergency funding.
 
Yes, these are the people who really suffered because of the mad dash to get the money out. There may have been serious problems caused for people who needed to access the money over the last few days and just couldn't.

not to mind that it didn't help the auld ticker .......
 
This is simply not true. You are either making it up as you go along or don't know what you are talking about. Irish banks may have been involved in bidding for some ECB liquidity injections, but this is no different in many respects from bidding in the interbank lending markets and is fundamentally different to NR's plea for emergency funding.

Barclays Bank obtained a 1.6bn emergency loan from the bank of England last month, in case you missed it
 
Barclays Bank obtained a 1.6bn emergency loan from the bank of England last month, in case you missed it
I'd pointed this out before, but have been corrected - Northern Rock's reason for needing a loan is somewhat more critical than Barclays was;

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/t...ectors/banking_and_finance/article2358155.ece

Barclays accessed the Bank’s so-called standby facility after a mal-function at Crest caused the electronic settlement system’s interface with the Bank of England to fail at 2.30pm on Wednesday. When the system restarted at 3.30pm, Barclays, one of the UK’s biggest clearing banks, saw that it had a sterling shortfall.

All banks must ensure that their Bank of England accounts are in the black by 4.20pm. Sources said that Barclays tried to borrow in the wholesale market but failed, in part because of other banks’ reluctance to lend at any cost. Potential lenders were also hampered by their own problems with Crest, which made it difficult for them to see whether they had surplus cash to offload.
 
Just to let you all know BOI are launching a new deposit product next week at 4.6% targeting NR depositers.
 
I understand full details will be in the press next week but it is in a no of different formats inc 3month with access and 6 month with 50% access and is geared to new money to BOi and larger sums. Thats as much as I have at the mo.Hope its of some help
 
Submitted online request last Sat night - still waiting. Spoke to NR staff yesterday and today. They were clueless and unreliable. Not happy. No matter what happens, money will not be going back to NR.

withdrew my NR savings at 3.15 am last Saturday.
this morning, finally, it turned up in BoI - hurrah!

I thought NR played with a fairly straight bat at first but then started spinning madly from mid-week - no calls or emails returned, laughable claims about people making lodgements, etc.

Time for a celebratory meal tonight...

Many thanks for the practical advice given by contributors here...
 
Aidans ... I am in a similar postition ... ask for transfer on sat 15th ... rang today a number of times, got conflicting information
1. that newcastle could initiate transfer
2. that newcastle could not initiate transfer and that teh email Dublin to initiate proceedings
3. that newcastle could initiate transfer

Now I checked again on-line and its still in account. I agree with earlier poster why leave money in Northern Wreck.

Is there any advantage to going up to Dublin Monday? Its meant to be in process? Any views. BTW dont say I am overacting (acting on behalf of elderly father) ..............
 
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