National Maternity Hospital

[cremeegg]

I have three questions about this move itself.

1. What I like to think of as the Denis O Brien question. Why is €300m of public money being provided for what will be a privately owned asset. Imagine the public reaction if the state were to build a €300m hospital on land owned by Denis. I suspect that there would be uproar at the idea. Is it different for nuns who are already in the hospital business?

2. This brings us to what I like to think of as the Ryan Report question. The Sisters of Charity have a record of running institutions, and it is not one that would prompt a reasonable person to entrust them with further such responsibilities.

At St Joseph’s Industrial school in Kilkenny, little girls as young as eight who complained of molestation by male lay staff were ignored, disbelieved or blamed for their abuse. Children were told their mothers were prostitutes. Children were fostered out to paedophiles. On three occasions the nuns hired paedophile lay workers, then failed to act when informed by children and sometimes by concerned adults about what was happening. Children were subject to severe corporal punishment right up until the 1990s.

See https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-charity-abuse-maternity-hospital-irish-state for more on this.

3. The 3rd question is the Financial Probity question.

The Sisters of Charity offered to contribute €5 million towards the €1.5 billion redress costs incurred by the State involving former residents of the institutions. However, they have contributed just €2 million to date.

Catholic religious congregations who ran residential institutions where children were abused have paid just 13% of the costs of a redress scheme set up to help survivors, according to a 2017 report by the Comptroller and Auditor General published by the Department of Education. I have no separate figures but the Sisters of charity were one of the main congregations involved.

Under the 2002 Indemnity agreement, (don't get me started) the Sisters agreed to transferred property to the state. Among those promised were the Sacred Heart centre in Waterford. It has not been transferred, at least as of the end of March.

So the question is are the sisters financially proper persons to be entrusted with state assets.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Only one question I have is why does Harris not invoke a CPO? I have seen him quoted as saying he won't do so but has he said why not? It beggars belief that we would invest €300m of public money into something that the state won't own.

 

[Purple]

Only one question I have is why does Harris not invoke a CPO? I have seen him quoted as saying he won't do so but has he said why not? It beggars belief that we would invest €300m of public money into something that the state won't own.

We currently invest billions into schools, universities and hospitals which the state doesn't own and which are allowed to maintain a religious ethos. This is only a major issue because its new.

 

[cremeegg]

Yes it is only a major issue because it is new. But when the state is about to spend €300m is a good time to consider if the arrangement should be changed.

 

[Purple]

Yes it is only a major issue because it is new. But when the state is about to spend €300m is a good time to consider if the arrangement should be changed.

Should that include the billions we currently spend on salaries, equipment and upkeep on hospitals and schools we don't own and staff we don't employ?

 

[cremeegg]

I firmly believe that all children should have a secular education provided by the state, supplemented by religious education provided by their parents where that is the parents wish.

I think the idea of schooling by religious denomination, including the awful multi-denominational concept of Educate together, is abhorrent.

But the topic for discussion in this thread and in the country generally at the moment is the National Maternity Hospital.

 

[Purple]

I firmly believe that all children should have a secular education provided by the state, supplemented by religious education provided by their parents where that is the parents wish.

I think the idea of schooling by religious denomination, including the awful multi-denominational concept of Educate together, is abhorrent.

But the topic for discussion in this thread and in the country generally at the moment is the National Maternity Hospital.

I agree. I think this is a classic example of how we have the wrong discussions in this country.
Just like the anger and opposition to the cost and waste and structural inefficiencies in small semi-state like Irish Water but none of us bats an eyelid at all the other state bodies, larger semi-states and so-called commercial semi-states which are structured and run in the same way.

We currently give billions every years to institutions owned and run by religious bodies to provide state services. The National Maternity Hospital is just the latest example and is entirely consistent with how we fund and deliver the vast majority of our educational and health services.

 

[thedaddyman]

We currently give billions every years to institutions owned and run by religious bodies to provide state services. The National Maternity Hospital is just the latest example and is entirely consistent with how we fund and deliver the vast majority of our educational and health services.

It is an interesting discussion, did the Catholic Church fill the gap in state services because the state wasn't delivering them or did the state decide there was no need to provide services because the Catholic Church was already doing it for them?

Regardless as to who runs the hospital, the bigger issue here is spending €300m (meaning €500m when it is finally built) of taxpayers money to build something and then hand it over to someone else. It's why I detest the M50 toll bridge as well.

 

[Purple]

It is an interesting discussion, did the Catholic Church fill the gap in state services because the state wasn't delivering them or did the state decide there was no need to provide services because the Catholic Church was already doing it for them?

Ireland in the 40's and 50's did what the Church told them.

Regardless as to who runs the hospital, the bigger issue here is spending €300m (meaning €500m when it is finally built) of taxpayers money to build something and then hand it over to someone else. It's why I detest the M50 toll bridge as well.

The State didn't pay for the bridge.

 

[cremeegg]

It is an interesting discussion, did the Catholic Church fill the gap in state services because the state wasn't delivering them or did the state decide there was no need to provide services because the Catholic Church was already doing it for them?

I agree with Purple, I don't think either of these positions reflect what occurred.

In independent Ireland from the 1920s the Church prevented the state involving itself in the provision of social services. the mother and child scheme was just the most obvious example.

Indeed they were at it under the Brits too. The British government introduced secular education where children of all religions would be educated together.

"The schools were controlled by a State body, the National Board of Education, with a six-member board consisting of two Roman Catholics, two Church of Ireland, and two Presbyterians. In the National Schools, there was strict delimitation between religious and non-religious education, where the teacher had to declare that religious education was beginning, hang a sign on the wall or door indicating that religious education was in process, and remove all religious symbols and objects from sight when religious education finished."

We went a long way backwards from there.

 

[PMU]

Yes it is only a major issue because it is new. But when the state is about to spend €300m is a good time to consider if the arrangement should be changed.

This is just a building project, and shows how incorrectly we do things in this country. Rather than hold a public tender competition and let the market provide the new hospital, the HSE decided it was best placed to decide where is the most appropriate location for this hospital, which was, needless to say, done behind closed doors in a totally non-transparent manner. The issue is not 'should the nuns have control over the new hospital' but rather (a) why was a public tender not used to select the new hospital (i.e. a design, build and manage contract) ; and (b) as there was not a tender, what selection criteria were used in arriving at the current decision? Even the HSE must admit is doesn't have a track record in success, and based on its performance to date, it's unlikely this will be a success either.

 

[Protocol]

It is an interesting discussion, did the Catholic Church fill the gap in state services because the state wasn't delivering them or did the state decide there was no need to provide services because the Catholic Church was already doing it for them?

Regarding primary education, the State planned to provide this itself in the 1830s, and it seems that mixed schools were initially established.

However, the Presbyterians requested that they run their own schools.

Soon after, the Catholic church followed.

 

[jjm]

Lots of Catholic Church primary school around Ireland were set with the help of the local Landlords .

 

[Leper]

PMU's post above is probably the most telling on this thread. It is not too late to pull out of the current deal and go to tender and have the hospital built in another site to be bought by the government. People are hung up on where in Dublin City the NMH should be built. Let's take a site near Naas for example. I bet you would get to it faster from nearly anywhere in Dublin City than to another Dublin City site.

The other hang-up most have is the availability of expertise from an adjoining hospital. If we're going to build another maternity hospital which will have state-of-the-art facilities, it is not too much to ask that any expertise required should be available within the hospital, not from another hospital. The new maternity hospital should be for the people and not the consultants.

 

[cremeegg]

Irish water, educational facilities, HSE tendering processes. All important issues, and while the public are distracted the church keeps its control.

If the nuns gain, (not hold but gain) , a grip on the NMH it will be a major reverse for the idea of publicly controlled and accountable state services. And the Irish people will have no one to blame but ourselves. If there is another scandal in a church run institution I don't want to hear about it, we have lost any right to sympathise with the victims.

 

[Purple]

PMU's post above is probably the most telling on this thread. It is not too late to pull out of the current deal and go to tender and have the hospital built in another site to be bought by the government. People are hung up on where in Dublin City the NMH should be built. Let's take a site near Naas for example. I bet you would get to it faster from nearly anywhere in Dublin City than to another Dublin City site.

There is some argument for having it outside the M50, Tallaght or Blanchardstown being the most obvious options, but not Naas or anywhere that far out. How do staff and visitors and day patients get there? What about 6 week check-up’s? James’s is very well served with busses, the LUAS and taxis. There is a QBC most of the way in from the M50 via Palmerstown and Heuston train station is a few minutes away.

The other hang-up most have is the availability of expertise from an adjoining hospital. If we're going to build another maternity hospital which will have state-of-the-art facilities, it is not too much to ask that any expertise required should be available within the hospital, not from another hospital. The new maternity hospital should be for the people and not the consultants.

No, that just doesn’t work. The issue is that if there is an unusual complication with the mother what is needed is a specialist who treats that sort of condition all the time. Say they find that she has a heart defect or is experiencing kidney failure post-delivery. They are not the sorts of skills which you will find in a maternity hospital. In the same was as you want the person reading your scan to be someone who spends all their time reading that sort of scan; expertise is built on skill and repetition. No single hospital can have the full array of skills required to cover every eventuality.

 

[Leper]

A few things going through my mind regarding the NMH wherever it is to be situated:-

1. We had a thread a few months ago about too many industries locating to Dublin putting a demand on housing, services etc. I remember arguing that if Dublin won't take them the rest of the country will. I wonder would it make such a difference if the NMH was placed in Tallaght, Blanchardstown or even the like of Newbridge, Kildare or Naas. Two huge hospitals in the same acre in Dublin City will cause traffic chaos on an ongoing basis. I can see roundabouts being christened "Birth of a Nation Cross" or "Baby Junction" and the chances of a newborn babies being brought into the world assisted by more taxi drivers than midwives. Cork University Maternity Hospital caters for maternity demands for the whole Munster region on a daily basis and with hindsight it would have been far easier for many mothers-to-be if it had been located near Fermoy. Fermoy is accessible in under a half an hour from anywhere in Cork City and it takes a half hour anyway to get access to the Cork University Maternity Hospital from anywhere in Cork city.

2. I'm not sold in more expertise being available from neighbouring hospitals no matter where they are. Purple puts up a good case, but no matter what way I look at having all services within a stone's throw is to suit the consultants moneywise etc rather than the mothers-to-be.

3. I'll probably get slated for this, but the religious ownership of land is getting nearer to a non event by the week. It's become like chasing Hitler to punish him although he died 72 years ago. How many Sisters-of-Charity will be in Ireland in say 20 years time? . . . or even 10 years from now? For that matter how many Christian Brothers will be around even in the near future. Many parishes in Ireland have already cut back hugely on Sunday Masses due to lack of priests. Are we flogging a dead horse?

 

[cremeegg]

I'll probably get slated for this, but the religious ownership of land is getting nearer to a non event by the week. It's become like chasing Hitler to punish him although he died 72 years ago. How many Sisters-of-Charity will be in Ireland in say 20 years time? . . . or even 10 years from now? For that matter how many Christian Brothers will be around even in the near future. Many parishes in Ireland have already cut back hugely on Sunday Masses due to lack of priests. Are we flogging a dead horse?

The greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince you he didn't exist. Religion certainly has all the best metaphors.

There may not be many religious left, but they have made careful provision that their "ethos" survives. Schools,(I know more about schools that hospitals) have been handed over to trusts, trusteed have been appointed to ensure that the vision of the founder continues. To be honest Ronan Mullen is probably better able to promote a catholic religious ethos in schools than the average nun. He is a director of over 100 second level schools. [broken link removed]

The proposed Independent (independent of what I ask) board of the NMH will have 4 nuns as members. I suppose they are experts on maternity matters.

 

[Leo]

3. I'll probably get slated for this, but the religious ownership of land is getting nearer to a non event by the week.

It's not really a good approach to hope they all die out and their influence wanes over time. Ask those denied certain treatments in Vincent's as a result of their religious ethos whether they're happy to wait a decade or two...or more.

 

[Leper]

I know Leo is making a salient point "Ask those denied certain treatments in Vincent's . . . ." No matter where the NMH is to be located nobody is going to ask "those denied certain treatments" anything.

From the start of this thread I have been suggesting that the NMH should be in a site solely owned by the state and run by the state for the people of Ireland and not just the Medical Profession and no places on the board should be given to anybody guided by any religion. The government was elected to run the country and should do so without influence from all those guided by more profit etc.