KBC KBC statement on tracker redress

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I also have advice to everyone on this thread who are now looking for answers after receiving the letter like myself. Some of you didn't seem to know about your mortgage been impacted and I understand probably want answers right now. Unfortunately @peemac is correct and you have to simply WAIT. I have also been in a fight with KBC for 10 years on this topic, I also was involved with the FSO and I also was told I am basically an idiot for not understanding what I signed. I stopped letting this get to me years ago but I understand why people are now wanting answers straight away if you are only involved now.

You will need to wait until the end of March for some of you and end of June for others. There is no point in contacting the customer service team because they are not involved with your account yet.....it is Deloitte who tells the customer service team what to do for each individual account. Until that happens the customer service team can tell you nothing. Also there is no point anymore trying to understand or decide what is coming from these Oireachtas Finance Committee meetings as these are simply high level figures that really mean nothing to your personal account. The figures I know are shocking and create a headline but everyone's mortgage account is different and there is no point trying to dig into their comments.

I know its frustrating and is such a life changing scenario but unfortunately you need to wait a few more months and then decide what can be done for your personal account after this CB review is complete.
 
grock1982 said:
Trackers where available up to 4 July 08. We drew down 12 June 08 on a fixed.
In relation to the Nov06 - Feb 08 time frame, who is to say that our broker didn't provide us with a copy of the flyer??
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The flyer expired in February 2008. So unless your application was made before the expiry, you can't use the flyer.

If a broker told you it applied when it had been withdrawn by the bank, then the broker would have been at fault. Not the bank.
 
The flyer clearly says that 'all IIB homeloans' will roll onto trackers of 1.25% following at the end of the fixed rate period.
The 0.9% was only available to new customers greater than 500k. with LTV of 80%.
i see little reason why i and others like me do not fall into 'all IIB homeloans' bracket.
IMO they failed to offer me all of the options available and i have communications [between 2005-2008] strongly highlighting the benefits of FR and nothing on any letter offering me a tracker. If i lose then so be it, i am no worse off for challenging a bank that was and is so clearly not customer focused.
 
peemac said:
The flyer expired in February 2008. So unless your application was made before the expiry, you can't use the flyer.

If a broker told you it applied when it had been withdrawn by the bank, then the broker would have been at fault. Not the bank.
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Peemac, your probably right.
Unfortunately for kbc bank the flyer doesn't have an expiry date in print. It could be argued that the 04 July 08 is the obvious expiry, as the tracker product failed to exist after this point.
The majority of brokers who traded in 2008 are long gone, therefore the period between feb 08 and July 08 is a grey area.
Information (Flyers) which were provided to customers by brokers during this period are open to interpretation.
The central bank may side with the consumer on this one, it is definitely an avenue worth pursuing.
 
PJDCol said:
I also have advice to everyone on this thread who are now looking for answers after receiving the letter like myself. Some of you didn't seem to know about your mortgage been impacted and I understand probably want answers right now. Unfortunately @peemac is correct and you have to simply WAIT. I have also been in a fight with KBC for 10 years on this topic, I also was involved with the FSO and I also was told I am basically an idiot for not understanding what I signed. I stopped letting this get to me years ago but I understand why people are now wanting answers straight away if you are only involved now.

You will need to wait until the end of March for some of you and end of June for others. There is no point in contacting the customer service team because they are not involved with your account yet.....it is Deloitte who tells the customer service team what to do for each individual account. Until that happens the customer service team can tell you nothing. Also there is no point anymore trying to understand or decide what is coming from these Oireachtas Finance Committee meetings as these are simply high level figures that really mean nothing to your personal account. The figures I know are shocking and create a headline but everyone's mortgage account is different and there is no point trying to dig into their comments.

I know its frustrating and is such a life changing scenario but unfortunately you need to wait a few more months and then decide what can be done for your personal account after this CB review is complete.
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I think the comments from PJDCOL AND PEEMAC,

Make the most sense, these guys have been through the ringer and still not quite there yet.

The one think to note is, KBC and the other Banks are not the customers friend.

For those who are not covered in 1) Tracker fixed tracker return. 2) The Nov ember 2006 to feb 2008 cohort new business fixed between those dates. These are iron clad and that’s that.

You simply need to see where you fit into the story. The banks know there are plenty of arguements to be had for this group and others. But if your contract only says revert to prevailing rate, IIB HOMELOAN RATE. Etc etc. you will get the idiot treatment like the two guys above have for nearly a decade.

The fear factor is paying legal costs while fearing you are flogging a dead horse. Case law is your research direction, get your documents. Bring them to Padric Cassan you will most likely become part of a forgotten group in progress., Padric will have to group by merit on yes, no, maybe, cases.

That’s what I would do
 
Hi All,

I am very new to all of this, like most of you I got a letter last week saying we may have been impacted.
We signed our loan offer on 28th February 2008 at a 2 year fixed rate. We got our mortgage through a broker.

Our terms and conditions state:

At the expiry of the fixed rate period the Lenders prevailing variable rate will apply. The special conditions reads: At the expiry of the fixed rate period your loan will revert to IIB Homeloans Renewal Rate. The IIB Homeloans Renewal Rate is a variable rate and may be varied by the Lender from time to time in line with general market conditions.

I have read so many different things online and I was wondering can anyone tell me how they think I stand. I am not even bothering ringing KBC I know lots of you are not getting anywhere and its a waiting game but any advice or thoughts would be appreciated. I am driving myself mad googling!

Rakitom - I just saw your post after I put this up - my contract does read the above but I am in the Feb 08 bracket, so not too sure where I stand.


Thanks!
 
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We drew down in Aug 2007 direct with KBC, fixed for 3 years with contract stating ‘at the end of the fixed period the Lenders prevailing variable rate will apply’

I had emailed the tracker review team in late 2017 and they called advising we were not impacted.

We received letter 5th Jan, stating we are in the scope of Deloitte review.

I guess I’m wondering like everyone else what is the probability of a favourable outcome, I guess it’s a waiting game.

Is anyone in a similar situation to me, never had a tracker but was due to go on prevailing rate once fixed rate ended?
 
Bryan140 said:
I think it would depend on how the prevailing interest rate is defined and the details in the contract.
If my case was as straight forward as you say would KBC not have stated that my case was not being considered?
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If trackers were on offer at the time when someone was coming of a fixed rate and rolling to the prevailing rate I could see how there might be a case for arguing that a tracker should have been offered. It's hard to see why you are included unless KBC's interpretation of " prevailing " is different to my interpretation of it ! Maybe it's the case that if the prevailing rate at the start of the fixed term was a tracker that after the fixed term was up one could reasonably have expected to have been offered a tracker ? Seems extremely implausible but ultimately we'll have to wait and see.
 
From another thread;
"Padraic Kissane is to be on matt Cooper this evening at 5.20 and was on radio 1 earlier and is rte 6 o clock news"

Let's hope the subject of the lender's prevailing rate (tracker) is discussed.

Certainly from November 2006 it was without doubt the tracker there was no SVR. Prior to this I can't comment. Padraic Kissane would know. He has enough contracts on hand.

Feb 2008 cut off needs to be clarified i.e. "Who says" and why? the bank?
 
just found the KBC statement online:
. 1,907 mortgage accounts that converted from a tracker rate to another rate product post drawdown up to the period July 2008 are now identified as impacted.
  • c. 650 PDH (Private Dwelling Home) mortgage accounts are now also identified as impacted. These related to new mortgage applications in the period November 2006 to February 2008 that drew down their mortgage on a fixed rate with a roll off to a standard variable rate. While these customers were never on a tracker rate, KBC has decided to offer these PDH customers a tracker rate product if the account is still open.
Payment of redress and compensation for the customers identified more recently as impacted will commence in January 2018 and complete by the end of June 2018.

apologies if I am going over old ground, KBC has decided to offer us a tracker even though we were to roll onto standard. so they are trying to say prevailing was standard but they are giving to us anyway??
 
demoivre said:
If trackers were on offer at the time when someone was coming of a fixed rate and rolling to the prevailing rate I could see how there might be a case for arguing that a tracker should have been offered. It's hard to see why you are included unless KBC's interpretation of " prevailing " is different to my interpretation of it ! Maybe it's the case that if the prevailing rate at the start of the fixed term was a tracker that after the fixed term was up one could reasonably have expected to have been offered a tracker ? Seems extremely implausible but ultimately we'll have to wait and see.
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It's not when the fixed rate expires counts its when you drew down. If only trackers available at drawdown the "lenders prevailing variable rate" is the tracker as per Bernard Byrnes quote.

In March 2008 if SVR was available then it could be interpreted as SVR. Same with prior to November 2006. If no SVR then it's the tracker. If SVR or Home Loan Rate available then it's those products.
 
Clara16 said:
just found the KBC statement online:
. 1,907 mortgage accounts that converted from a tracker rate to another rate product post drawdown up to the period July 2008 are now identified as impacted.
  • c. 650 PDH (Private Dwelling Home) mortgage accounts are now also identified as impacted. These related to new mortgage applications in the period November 2006 to February 2008 that drew down their mortgage on a fixed rate with a roll off to a standard variable rate. While these customers were never on a tracker rate, KBC has decided to offer these PDH customers a tracker rate product if the account is still open.
Payment of redress and compensation for the customers identified more recently as impacted will commence in January 2018 and complete by the end of June 2018.

apologies if I am going over old ground, KBC has decided to offer us a tracker even though we were to roll onto standard. so they are trying to say prevailing was standard but they are giving to us anyway??
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Where does it say you will roll to the Standard Variable Rate
 
my contract says lenders prevailing rate, in their statement on their website they say standard variable rate. BUT KBC has decided to offer these PDH customer a tracker rate product if the account is still open, it doesn't mention back dating or compensation. I presume I am the c 650 PDH but they are avoiding saying we had lender's prevailing rate on contracts
 
The KBC statement says "a group of c. 2,557 mortgage accounts are now identified as impacted for a variety of reasons. These accounts will be moved back to a tracker rate, if the account is still open, and they will receive redress and compensation". The 650 PDH customers are included in total numer of 2,557. So I think the 650 are entitled to redress/compensation based on that...
 
peemac said:
No. I used that argument both with the FSO and my own legal advisors and both disagreed, but said in the absence of any definition, you "could" revert to a definition written in the mortgage document - that's where some are gettign the idea from.
Those on trackers had "REVERT to homeloan variable rate". The argument is that to evert to something you must be on that previously.


The flyer was to brokers signing new business. Brokers don't deal with anything once they sign you up, so the flyer would not be in play for you.
No - see above.

Sorry if its unpalatable, but you have to be realistic. Those being returned to tracker had an understanding due to either broker communication or because they were originally on a tracker that they would revert to a tacker rate when their fixed rate was up.

The main group were, for want of a better word, "coerced" by KBC to move from tracker to fixed though the sending of unsolicited fixed rate "special offers" that had a deadline of acceptance of about 10 days in the midst of banks (including KBC) warning of much higher rates and advising that fixed was the better option and in the height of holiday season. - Try gettig "independent advice", making a decision and ensuring a form is returned within 10 days in July. That was blatantly unfair and the CB had agreed and everyone in the group 100% deserve to be back on their trackers that they signed up to.

The second group are the infamous flyer group. KBC told brokers that from Nov. 6 all clients they bring to KBC (remember they had several options), would see those clients go to tracker at the end of the fixed rate they signed up to. That agreement was withdrawn in Feb 08. So mortgages that started on a fixed rate between Nov 2006 & Feb 2008 are in this group.

The common factor in both is both had a verifiable expectation in writing with a stated margin over ecb of a tracker after the fixed rate and without this, I would find it difficult to see how the CB can force a tracker to be offered.

Many of the second group never knew of this and have had very pleasant surprises and many of the first group had just accepted what the bank said and also have had very pleasant surprises. But many are hoping / convincing themselves they should be included, but will be, imo, disappointed.

.
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Peemac I have to step in here because I don't agree with your comments.

Back end October it was looking like your group was deemed not impacted as well as those customers that gave up their tracker willingly. Now I don't like what KBC did to these accounts and it was wrong we all know that. But I don't think you quite understand the fixed rate situation. Up to end December it was the fixed rate contracts that rolled to the 'lenders prevailing variable rate' that appeared to be impacted but KBC have now done a Uturn on this. It is my view that the lenders prevailing rate is a bigger and more expensive issue for them. (and its not over yet)

I think you need to explain to all the newcomers here that originally you had a tracker and at some point you signed a fixed rate form reverting to SVR. Is it really the main group? Im not sure! However your original tracker contract states;

In the event that, or at any time the REFI rate is certified by the Lender to be unavailable for any reason the interest rate applicable to the loan shall be the prevailing Home Loan Variable Rate.

Your interest rate is described as the 'Lenders prevailing variable rate' with a margin quoted only in the special conditions which was an addendum to the main mortgage contract. No mention of tracker anywhere. It was described as a variable rate in the main contract.

The Fixed rate contracts for some, rolled to the "lenders prevailing variable rate' (margin set in the brokers communication). lenders prevailing rate was not explained anywhere within the contracts.

So anyone that has the above fixed rate contract is fully entitled to be offered a tracker up to the point where they no longer offered trackers. Thats what needs to be made clear. Who decided Feb 2008 is the deadline? the bank? Why? thats what needs to be clarified and thats what people need answers on. Same prior to November 2006 why are they not entitled to trackers. These questions need to be answered.

In 2010 571 following a Central Bank investigation, customers were returned to trackers in KBC. It is my believe these were the fixed rate contracts that rolled to the 'lenders prevailing variable rate' that commenced in 2007 (three years fixed). We know this from people posting this info in another forum. This information needs to be made public as KBCs statement on this have varied and are ambiguous for obvious reasons.

Clara16 (2007) fixed contract rolls to the lenders prevailing rate. She is entitled to a tracker.

Johnnys (2007) fixed rate contract rolls to the Standard Variable Rate (now been given a tracker)
Peters (2007) fixed rate contract rolls to the Home Loan Variable Rate (now been given a tracker)

KBC fixed rate contracts stated at various times including mid 2007 and beginning 2008 that they would roll to the Standard Variable Rate, they also stated they would roll to the Home Loan Variable Rate, some stated they would roll to the lenders prevailing variable rate. So not everyones fixed rate contract is the same.

The statement that KBC made prior in December;
  • . 650 PDH (Private Dwelling Home) mortgage accounts are now also identified as impacted. These related to new mortgage applications in the period November 2006 to February 2008 that drew down their mortgage on a fixed rate with a roll off to a standard variable rate. While these customers were never on a tracker rate, KBC has decided to offer these PDH customers a tracker rate product if the account is still open.

We have KBC saying 650 PDH .... roll off to the standard variable rate.

I have been watching this very closely. In my opinion KBC as stated above did a uturn on the cohorts. Thinking they would cover the fixed rate 'lenders prevailing variable rate' problem under the above Standard Variable Rate umbrella and throwing in as well those that rolled to the Home Loan Variable Rate. (Believe me KBC is not a charity throwing trackers at these accounts). They have put in a deadline of February 2008. Who says the buy to lets are not impacted? KBC! Those buy to let accounts are also definitely impacted. I doubt at drawdown the brokers in 2007 stated that the buy to lets were not rolling to a tracker but the PDH would. Those that have buy to lets will now have to fight for their entitlement of a tracker.

Clara16 will be offered a tracker. She was led to believe by KBC when the fixed rate expired that the lenders prevailing variable rate was the SVR. This is the KBC scandal that needs to be exposed. Instead of putting Clara16 on a tracker (as they did in 2010) they put her on the SVR interpreting the lenders prevailing rate as the SVR. Im not saying this was done on purpose:confused: maybe the staff got a little confused.


For all those that have fixed rates outside of the above Nov 2006 - Feb 2008 window set by KBC, you will need to get a good solicitor or contact Padraic Kissane for a clearer picture on this..
 
@Clara16 & @Westie32

Unless you have a different letter, the letter say "you are considered impacted" - not "we are considering if you are impacted". Its fairly black and white, but in their language.

You have to understand that KBC are doing this through gritted teeth with the central bank having them in armlock. They are not going to be up front and state "hey, we made a mistake and now we're correcting it and this incudes your mortgage" - nope they are using language saying that "we don't like this, but the Central bank and deloitte have forced to to do this - we're still checking in case we can found a way out of this"

But there is no way out of this for them.

The letter says you are impacted. KBC have stated that those impacted will be refunded and given a tracker.

With your mortgages its not the woring int eh contract, but the wording in the flyer that applied to all mortages the brokers brought to KBC and started on a fixed rate.
@Clara16 - I think you can be considered quite lucky as they could say that this only applies to those who went through brokers, but as you'd be in a tiny number, its probbaly not worth them to fight it.


@Lightening = Where KBC fell down on the group I'm is is they sent this unsolicited and gave very little time to respod to the "special offer" Hence it was seen that they coerced customers to act in haste without pointing out to them that it would be a major change.

On rates - all banks always had a "standard variable rate" - It just wasn't in the market due to trackers & fixed being all the rage at the time. The REFI rate is the official ECB rate, so unless the ECB stopped setting rates, the refi rate was always going to be there.



Refi rate
When reference is made to the European interest rate this often refers to the ECB refi rate. The level of this refi rate is therefore really the price that banks pay to borrow funds from the European Central Bank.
 
@Lightening - Did you not say previously that you received the letter saying that you are considered iimpacted?

The KBC statement is not excluding buy to lets - it says "PDH - Private Dwelling Houses". I read that as houses, and not commercial property and it wouldn't matter whether it was a residential investment mortgage or main resdience mortgage.

Both types of mortgages are on the infamous flyer and it states clearly "ALL NEW CUSTOMERS" in bold

So if you have the letter, you will have your tracker and a refund.
 
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